Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Here are my thoughts. I'm reasonably sure Sylandra is town, I'm town, Luce just made a really ballsy claim that probably makes him and Weiwae town. I dont think Xeii actually made a claim beyond "I'm a doctor and Meridian", which you would think doctoring would fall to Malmydia (Ushaara) or Eventru. I'm not comfortable lynching any of these people for now.
I'm interested in lynching quiet people, people hiding under the radar. Thoughts?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
1
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
(Likewise I don't want to lynch Shaddus today because I can confirm 100% he didn't kill Falaeron last night.)
I don't know what @Luce is getting at in that post. Investigator? I really hope not. This really wasn't the hill to die on, if so.
Regarding the "unless there's conversion" tidbit in Luce's post, I want to point this out:
My own suspicions have been fluctuating quite a bit, unable to crystallise precisely on any particular path or view. Weiwae has been itching my intuition, but I haven't really been able to fully grasp why. I poked at this a little earlier, trying to piece together what has changed since day one.
I feel like we have an early bid for "leadership" going here - Weiwae felt more focused on encouraging conversation and prodding everyone into contributing day one, but today he's far more focused on stepping right up to the most direct competitor he has for marshalling town: Sylandra. This is even echoed in his words, where he's pivoting his stance on degree and magnitude more than on what's being argued (so that's why Phoebus is okay to be ignored even though she's had very similar stances? Okay).
I think I can support this motion.
Vote: Weiwae
I hadn't really read Weiwae's posts in that way, but once I considered it in this lens that Vivet does, I think you could make an argument that Weiwae might have been converted last night? Alignment shift often leads to inconsistent gameplay.
I mean we aren't even sure there are cults in this game, we've just talked about it being highly possible with Fain (maybe?) included. Day 2 doesn't give us a lot to work with except paranoia.
I'm not convinced to budge yet, anyway. Luce's claim though explains his earlier behavior a bit re: Weiwae.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
If you're saying you're some kind of investigator, Luce, I don't think this was the right time to claim at all. Day 2 with no information on scum to trade your life for, and (probably) doctor in the open so the only source of protection we have is a jailer that would render your ability useless? Are you high? What other town role would possibly be worth sacrificing yourself for?
...that's a hypothetical question, by the way. Please don't answer that.
Some of this back and forth is really brain melting when read in once big lump like I just endured. We have discovered a fair bit of...well not information exactly but more feelings of each other, which is really awesome for day two, but also I think it could lead to conclusions that aren't accurate being jumped to. There's a lot of aggression which is nerve-wracking for anyone really as even the smallest error in speech can attract undue attention. I also think it's actually been easier than expected to create significant vote trains for such a large game.
I've been pondering where to put my vote. I got the reasoning behind voting Ushaara but wasn't comfortable with it myself. I get that information is king and as such lynching town can provide it, but I think even without the confirmation of a rolesheet from a traitor we've learned something from the back and forth and who was willing to slip in a quiet vote and who wasn't.
Sylandra is being very pushy and the Los Alamos mafia experience of just how cleverly she played us all makes me so so nervous but I am ok with giving her the benefit of the doubt for the moment. Just paint me wary of her genius string-pulling.
I am not as suspicious of Breandryn as I am of the cohesion going on with Selenity and Weiwae. I can't help but think there is some sort of team relationship going on, masons or scum perhaps? Anyway, I am suspicious enough to put out a vote.
From my perspective , we have a clear town block now, and we have people casting aspersions on that block and trying to lynch it. This is going to become a quick town loss.
I am the master of making wrong assumptions, but my read was that Weiwae/Luce were masons, rather than Luce claiming investigator.
Was thinking Tae/Bollikin from Weiwae's Day 1 posts but Luce just signed off as Xyl who I had pegged as Othero so yep, probably spectacularly wrong...Xyl/Isune still work for masons though.
Coming from Someone who had included those third party roles, they do exist @Weiwar.
Well, that is interesting. Would be pretty funny if the only people who didn't know the town win condition were the three or four people who failed to pay attention to the role given. Very unfortunate for us as well.
I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about Weiwae right now, but unless he really was town (and possibly had some important power) Luce wouldn't have outed himself to break up a train most likely to lead to a lynch at the point when he outed himself.
Even if Luce was really scum, I don't think it would benefit scum that much for him to try and save Weiwae at this point, plenty of people seem suspicious of him as it is.
"May this be the first of many new experiences for you, Heart of the Crescendo," Czixi says, smile quirking. "The future is an exciting place."
ok I just realised more posts happened while I had my post open and typing. That's what I get for taking so long. Going to read back.
First off, I hope you are doing ok.
Now, back to the game. Can you explain why when Xeii and Shadus were being grilled, you didn't speak up and mention that you also didn't properly read the win condition? Or can you explain why one of your first posts was about the traitors being our main opponent?
Ok wow @Luce that's a ballsy post to make and I'm not sure what to make of it. I need to think and re-read. Also Weiwae saying he wasn't converted doesn't actually mean anything, of course he'd say that. What I want to know is why did Luce come out like that? Surely only a crazy person would lie so blatantly. Can he be certain Weiwae wasn't converted? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But still. Wow.
For the moment I would like to UNVOTE and I swear I am not hitting post on any more comments until I'm sure no one has posted in the mean time, because that's awkward timing up there.
Could Luce and Weiwae be like...Iosion and Sidd from Pokemon, One goes Both go (a Romeo/Juliet role) perhaps? It would explain His vested interest in keeping Him alive, but possibly paint Him as Trill Bill more than Isune unless I am forgetting lore.
I feel like this is the most unnecessary claim mafia game I have ever played. I am very confused why people are giving up information like this so freely. It's going to require a lot of thought on who I am going to vote, as I am absolutely torn over what I believe. I am not going to be home until late tonight so don't expect a more in depth post from me until possibly tomorrow (cutting it close to deadline, I know but I'm being kidnapped by friends tonight). And there are lots of posts to reread (I completely missed Luce's soft claim until Lavinya mentioned it).
Real head scratcher.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Would asking to know what Weiwae's power is be too risky at this point? Assuming both are town, a Weiwae reveal would have three town players (myself included) with important roles since we can also kinda guess at what Luce's role may be...
"May this be the first of many new experiences for you, Heart of the Crescendo," Czixi says, smile quirking. "The future is an exciting place."
I hadn't really read Weiwae's posts in that way, but once I considered it in this lens that Vivet does, I think you could make an argument that Weiwae might have been converted last night? Alignment shift often leads to inconsistent gameplay.
I mean we aren't even sure there are cults in this game, we've just talked about it being highly possible with Fain (maybe?) included. Day 2 doesn't give us a lot to work with except paranoia.
... I hadn't actually considered that angle just yet, but I can see what is drawing you towards that leaning.
If that is the case, we will need to accept the following points.
1. That Illith and Kethuru fought last night instead of doing anything particular. 2. That someone converted Weiwae. 3. That someone eliminated Krokano.
We are forced to assume that Illith and Kethuru fighting means they actually couldn't take any action, in which case, it seems highly unlikely that a single entity could convert AND eliminate on the same night (that would be absurdly strong). So are we to assume that besides Illith and Kethuru, there is someone who can kill and someone else who can convert? And we would seem to be drawn to assuming the killer is not a Vigilante - there was already some discussion and people didn't seem inclined to believe it was a Vig, unless they were a very trigger happy and inexperienced Vig.
This set up might not be impossible, especially if earlier speculation about the Soulless being more like a pack of serial killers than an organised group were true.
But we have another curveball now, a defence from an apparent Xyl in the form of Luce. Based on Luce's insistence, we might assume he is either a mason with Weiwae or an investigator. Let's keep it this way - we don't need to feed exacting information of this degree to scum.
Would a mason in a set not notice if their partner was converted? Would an investigator be unable to read a conversion, depending on the chain of priority that powers play out by? This can vary a lot from game to game, but each instance increases uncertainty.
And it is definitely increasing my uncertainty. However!
From my perspective , we have a clear town block now, and we have people casting aspersions on that block and trying to lynch it. This is going to become a quick town loss.
What are you doing?
Having suspicions on multiple people isn't bad, so long as you aren't pointing fingers at -everyone-. You seem to be implying seeing patterns, but instead of granting any exposition you go the route of Cryptic Portension. This makes me uneasy.
Sylandra has had no problem on pinning thoughts on a variety of people and their behaviours, as well as Ushaara (who elected to do so even with high amounts of pressure on him). What benefit is there to town to listen to this statement of yours and not expect any backup or reflection?
I was strongly considering dropping my vote until I read this, but now my vote is staying until you can at least grant some exposition.
That said - @Lavinya, don't forget Weiwae's question either.
I can't grant any exposition. I don't even have any understanding of what people think I have done to cause suspicion.
From my perspective, I have been told that I'm acting too much like a townie. Ok... I'm a townie, not much I can do about that. I am being accused of being converted, which didn't happen. Not much I can do about that. As far as I know, we don't even have a conversion cult. We have no evidence that such a thing exists.
From my perspective, it seems that suggesting that we don't lynch people who we think are townies is a bad idea. I can't really defend against that either. If you think lynching townies is a good way forward, then lynch me. Eventually, the town will lose.
Any attempt to defend myself is turned on its head. It's not hard to see the writing on the wall. Selenity has my back? That must mean we are scum partners. Luce has my back? That must mean we are also scum partners. Nobody has any suspicion of either Selenity or Luce, but since they agreed with me, we must be having a three-way mason pairing going on? I don't understand it.
Selenity, Falaeron, and I on day one kept agreeing with each other's posts left and right. We three were all in sync, and pushing the same direction. Falaeron was killed and revealed to be town. Apparently, that also makes me suspicious, because we are supposed to be ignoring the fact that Falaeron was town?
I kept pushing to get information from people who apparently didn't know that the Soulless was the main mafia group against the townie elders, and that somehow proves I'm neither Elder nor Soulless.
I have seen three posts which vote lynch me after saying that their gut says I'm town and they find somebody else more suspicious. I don't know how to do anything to change that either.
I was asked why I was grilling Sylandra when Phoebus made similar remarks. I explained that attacking multiple people at once doesn't go anywhere. In response to that you say that Sylandara was willing to switch to multiple different voting trains, and so I should have been doing the same? But there was nobody else talking about Phoebus! How would that be helpful?
There was the argument about double guessing hypothetical roles and hypothetical actions which we don't even know if they took place or can take place. I called that a WIFOM situation. Apparently, I'm wrong about that, and it's perfectly legitimate to suggest that a hypothetical investigation at some later time is already suspect because it will be wrong. I can't make head or tails of this logic either. Hypothetical situations are hypothetical. If you are going to suggest that all information that we receive is wrong except for when we lynch town, again not much I can do about that. At the same time, you are making your decisions off of events which I know never happened, and which you have no evidence for happening.
So, if I understand this correctly, roles with powers to gather information are suspect and wrong, but random theories about what you think might be a possible event with no evidence, are most likely to be correct and should be your main focal point for logic? And this makes sense to other people? There isn't anything I can do about that either.
I have no clue how to defend oneself against the illusions and phantoms of other people which I know for a fact are false.
1
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
I disagree that building big lynch trains has been easy. We are cutting it super close and it feels like we are still nowhere near a consensus. Agree with Dylara that today has had a lot of unnecessary claims--which is what happens mainly when the day drags on, nothing happens, and people get antsy.
The mafia got a ton of info today, guys. If we don't lynch, then we don't gain solid information, just hunches based on posts and behaviors. @Fyler is right that some unlucky sod needs going. If you're not voting Weiwae because of Luce, then who?
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Comments
I'm interested in lynching quiet people, people hiding under the radar. Thoughts?
I don't know what @Luce is getting at in that post. Investigator? I really hope not. This really wasn't the hill to die on, if so.
Regarding the "unless there's conversion" tidbit in Luce's post, I want to point this out:
I hadn't really read Weiwae's posts in that way, but once I considered it in this lens that Vivet does, I think you could make an argument that Weiwae might have been converted last night? Alignment shift often leads to inconsistent gameplay.
I mean we aren't even sure there are cults in this game, we've just talked about it being highly possible with Fain (maybe?) included. Day 2 doesn't give us a lot to work with except paranoia.
I'm not convinced to budge yet, anyway. Luce's claim though explains his earlier behavior a bit re: Weiwae.
...that's a hypothetical question, by the way. Please don't answer that.
https://estelss16.deviantart.com/, visit if interested.
I've been pondering where to put my vote. I got the reasoning behind voting Ushaara but wasn't comfortable with it myself. I get that information is king and as such lynching town can provide it, but I think even without the confirmation of a rolesheet from a traitor we've learned something from the back and forth and who was willing to slip in a quiet vote and who wasn't.
Sylandra is being very pushy and the Los Alamos mafia experience of just how cleverly she played us all makes me so so nervous but I am ok with giving her the benefit of the doubt for the moment. Just paint me wary of her genius string-pulling.
I am not as suspicious of Breandryn as I am of the cohesion going on with Selenity and Weiwae. I can't help but think there is some sort of team relationship going on, masons or scum perhaps? Anyway, I am suspicious enough to put out a vote.
Vote Weiwae
Was thinking Tae/Bollikin from Weiwae's Day 1 posts but Luce just signed off as Xyl who I had pegged as Othero so yep, probably spectacularly wrong...Xyl/Isune still work for masons though.
And just to say it definitively, not the doctor.
I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about Weiwae right now, but unless he really was town (and possibly had some important power) Luce wouldn't have outed himself to break up a train most likely to lead to a lynch at the point when he outed himself.
Even if Luce was really scum, I don't think it would benefit scum that much for him to try and save Weiwae at this point, plenty of people seem suspicious of him as it is.
https://estelss16.deviantart.com/, visit if interested.
Unvote
Now, back to the game. Can you explain why when Xeii and Shadus were being grilled, you didn't speak up and mention that you also didn't properly read the win condition? Or can you explain why one of your first posts was about the traitors being our main opponent?
For the moment I would like to UNVOTE and I swear I am not hitting post on any more comments until I'm sure no one has posted in the mean time, because that's awkward timing up there.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Real head scratcher.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
What exactly is @Weiwae's power?
Would asking to know what Weiwae's power is be too risky at this point? Assuming both are town, a Weiwae reveal would have three town players (myself included) with important roles since we can also kinda guess at what Luce's role may be...
https://estelss16.deviantart.com/, visit if interested.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Also, to be fair @Ushaara, if Trillillial wasn't there, Isune might have tried to tap Xyl. Not that we can blame her either.
If that is the case, we will need to accept the following points.
1. That Illith and Kethuru fought last night instead of doing anything particular.
2. That someone converted Weiwae.
3. That someone eliminated Krokano.
We are forced to assume that Illith and Kethuru fighting means they actually couldn't take any action, in which case, it seems highly unlikely that a single entity could convert AND eliminate on the same night (that would be absurdly strong). So are we to assume that besides Illith and Kethuru, there is someone who can kill and someone else who can convert? And we would seem to be drawn to assuming the killer is not a Vigilante - there was already some discussion and people didn't seem inclined to believe it was a Vig, unless they were a very trigger happy and inexperienced Vig.
This set up might not be impossible, especially if earlier speculation about the Soulless being more like a pack of serial killers than an organised group were true.
But we have another curveball now, a defence from an apparent Xyl in the form of Luce. Based on Luce's insistence, we might assume he is either a mason with Weiwae or an investigator. Let's keep it this way - we don't need to feed exacting information of this degree to scum.
Would a mason in a set not notice if their partner was converted? Would an investigator be unable to read a conversion, depending on the chain of priority that powers play out by? This can vary a lot from game to game, but each instance increases uncertainty.
And it is definitely increasing my uncertainty. However!
What are you doing?
Having suspicions on multiple people isn't bad, so long as you aren't pointing fingers at -everyone-. You seem to be implying seeing patterns, but instead of granting any exposition you go the route of Cryptic Portension. This makes me uneasy.
Sylandra has had no problem on pinning thoughts on a variety of people and their behaviours, as well as Ushaara (who elected to do so even with high amounts of pressure on him). What benefit is there to town to listen to this statement of yours and not expect any backup or reflection?
I was strongly considering dropping my vote until I read this, but now my vote is staying until you can at least grant some exposition.
That said - @Lavinya, don't forget Weiwae's question either.
From my perspective, I have been told that I'm acting too much like a townie. Ok... I'm a townie, not much I can do about that.
I am being accused of being converted, which didn't happen. Not much I can do about that. As far as I know, we don't even have a conversion cult. We have no evidence that such a thing exists.
From my perspective, it seems that suggesting that we don't lynch people who we think are townies is a bad idea. I can't really defend against that either. If you think lynching townies is a good way forward, then lynch me. Eventually, the town will lose.
Any attempt to defend myself is turned on its head. It's not hard to see the writing on the wall. Selenity has my back? That must mean we are scum partners. Luce has my back? That must mean we are also scum partners. Nobody has any suspicion of either Selenity or Luce, but since they agreed with me, we must be having a three-way mason pairing going on? I don't understand it.
Selenity, Falaeron, and I on day one kept agreeing with each other's posts left and right. We three were all in sync, and pushing the same direction. Falaeron was killed and revealed to be town. Apparently, that also makes me suspicious, because we are supposed to be ignoring the fact that Falaeron was town?
I kept pushing to get information from people who apparently didn't know that the Soulless was the main mafia group against the townie elders, and that somehow proves I'm neither Elder nor Soulless.
I have seen three posts which vote lynch me after saying that their gut says I'm town and they find somebody else more suspicious. I don't know how to do anything to change that either.
I was asked why I was grilling Sylandra when Phoebus made similar remarks. I explained that attacking multiple people at once doesn't go anywhere. In response to that you say that Sylandara was willing to switch to multiple different voting trains, and so I should have been doing the same? But there was nobody else talking about Phoebus! How would that be helpful?
There was the argument about double guessing hypothetical roles and hypothetical actions which we don't even know if they took place or can take place. I called that a WIFOM situation. Apparently, I'm wrong about that, and it's perfectly legitimate to suggest that a hypothetical investigation at some later time is already suspect because it will be wrong. I can't make head or tails of this logic either. Hypothetical situations are hypothetical. If you are going to suggest that all information that we receive is wrong except for when we lynch town, again not much I can do about that. At the same time, you are making your decisions off of events which I know never happened, and which you have no evidence for happening.
So, if I understand this correctly, roles with powers to gather information are suspect and wrong, but random theories about what you think might be a possible event with no evidence, are most likely to be correct and should be your main focal point for logic? And this makes sense to other people? There isn't anything I can do about that either.
I have no clue how to defend oneself against the illusions and phantoms of other people which I know for a fact are false.
The mafia got a ton of info today, guys. If we don't lynch, then we don't gain solid information, just hunches based on posts and behaviors. @Fyler is right that some unlucky sod needs going. If you're not voting Weiwae because of Luce, then who?
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Vote Count, Day Two:
Ushaara - Yomoigu, Luce (2)
Sylandra - Ssaliss (1)
Breadryn - Selenity, Ushaara, Weiwae (3)
Weiwae - Phoebus, Tremula, Sylandra, Vivet, Fyler, Lavinya (6)
THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT