Until someone, specifically you but I'll take anyone, can provide a reasonable explanation for his motivation, it's just not rational. I want reconciliation regarding people's motivations. If you're accusing someone of possibly lying, you have to answer why they would lie. Until you can, it's frivolous. I'm simply not interested in an irrational lynch.
You can dislike how much of the argument is caught up in Ushaara's motivation as you like, but it's the lynchpin. You're saying we should lynch Ushaara because of Fain, and then some nonsensical tangent about how we should've lynched Ushaara yesterday to prevent today's claims. It's literally nonsense, which is why I'm bothered about you. There's nothing to indicate lynching Ushaara yesterday would've changed Shaddus, for example, barfing up what he knew, and you following up with a claim.
I'm sorry, but making a big stink about Ushaara coulda shoulda woulda yesterday as some explanation for today is a bad argument. You claimed without a vote on you. It's strange, it's just very strange behavior.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
And I should say that it bothers me because your arguments yesterday made sense. Now you're making a lot less, and using consistency of your vote to explain it away.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
I'm tracker, not investigator. I also don't believe Sylandra's Hoaracle claim, though my power doesn't give me the role, only what they do that night. Why would Hoaracle disappear into the Northern Wastes, "into thin air"?
However, UNVOTE, VOTE:OTHERO. We still don't know who you are, your claim of "soulless knowledge" is pretty sketchy and really hasn't helped us very much, and you're pushing to lynch me despite my being proved town.
I'll back off on the lynch but stop revealing important town roles.
Nervous much?
Haven't you caused enough damage? You've been playing very strangely this entire game: You didn't read your role, you didn't read the message you received from your Night 1 action, you claimed a different power than you actually had, you've made several accusations based on no information, and you outed me for no purpose. I don't know if you're scum or just not paying attention, but I'm halfway inclined to lynch you regardless of your supposed role.
I...am bothered by the idea that because the town collectively decided against Ushaara yesterday, and individuals made dumb claims today, Ushaara is somehow a reasonable choice as a result of choices he had no say in. Why? There's no evidence some of these claims, which are literally not connected to Ushaara, wouldn't have happened without him. Like Shaddus had nothing to do with Ushaara, but they did have something to do with Sylandra. Furthermore, that claim happened today, and the Day That Never Ended was yesterday. They are unrelated.
I maintain that I can't vote for Ushaara until there is some reasonable explanation as to why he'd claim a traitor, knowing Fain was also a traitor. It makes no sense. He'd be dead the moment a traitor died and flipped, and if he was a traitor cult, he would know that's inevitable.
It also bothers me that I answered Sylandra's question, and said the better question is how do you reconcile Ushaara's claim with the role you're accusing him of having, the answer was chorus of crickets.
Now we have Sylandra's power, which is some kind of immunity. We have two known town immunities. Do we think Town as three immunities. WE DO NOT.
Perhaps I was mistaken yesterday in debating Weiwae.
vote: Sylandra
Your action is that reasonable argument. I spent yesterday making the same argument as you, you're making it now. By claiming traitor he's had people lining up to go "Actually the game doesn't follow canon so she can't be part of the traitor cult". You're saying he'd be dead the second a traitor cult flipped but he's not, you're arguing right now that he shouldn't be lynched. It's a fakeout.
It'd be a monumental bluff, if so, and as Queen of Bluffs(tm) I'm not buying that. It's way too early to pull that kind of bluff. You can't bluff and give people 7 days to call you on it.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
@Fyler I'm not saying that at all. They're two separate things. I think Shaddus is just making bad choices and revealing a bunch of roles. I don't think it has anything to do with Ushaara. Lynching Ushaara gets the day to end and gets everyone to shut up for a bit and come back and play a bit better.
My point about yesterday is that I thought the same thing as you but flipped on it today because Fain showed to be a Traitor. The explanation for Ushaara claiming early is to make a bluff and get people like you and me to say that Malymdia can't be a traitor in this game because the game doesn't follow canon. Their irrationality is the point of the claim.
Also I did not claim for no reason, I claimed because Weiwae's info about me being first circle was wrong. Which he then seems to have walked back on and instead said that he also misread his text, it just mentioned a meeting of the first circle. Also, why is everyone unable to read their PMs this game?
I'm tracker, not investigator. I also don't believe Sylandra's Hoaracle claim, though my power doesn't give me the role, only what they do that night. Why would Hoaracle disappear into the Northern Wastes, "into thin air"?
However, UNVOTE, VOTE:OTHERO. We still don't know who you are, your claim of "soulless knowledge" is pretty sketchy and really hasn't helped us very much, and you're pushing to lynch me despite my being proved town.
I'll back off on the lynch but stop revealing important town roles.
Nervous much?
Haven't you caused enough damage? You've been playing very strangely this entire game: You didn't read your role, you didn't read the message you received from your Night 1 action, you claimed a different power than you actually had, you've made several accusations based on no information, and you outed me for no purpose. I don't know if you're scum or just not paying attention, but I'm halfway inclined to lynch you regardless of your supposed role.
Then lynch me. I'm inclined to disagree with the earlier statement about the game not winding down, because half the game has either claimed or came out about their powers. That's why I urged people to post a list of players and who has claimed what.
I spent most of the first day trying to defend someone who ended up being town ANYWAY, just because I hadn't read my role and they apparently hadn't either, and the rest of you jumped on it. Instead of being a slow and easy mafia game where we try to actually figure things out, people are pointing fingers just to point fingers. Not constructive at all.
Meanwhile, we've managed to get rid of one traitor, I believe Sylandra is another but can't prove it, haven't managed to get rid of a soulless (the actual enemy here) and you've tried (and failed) to lynch an elder. Those of you with protective or jailer powers are using them willy-nilly without a sense of direction. At least I'm checking out people that are acting suspious. I vouched for Sylandra not being soulless, I vouched for you @Yomoigu as to not being a soulless, and you got pissed off about it. The sooner we figure out who is obviously who, the sooner we can narrow down who needs to go, who has been quiet and trying to hide.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Silvanus has passive shady that stacks with his runes of shade.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Shaddus there are two actual enemies here... the traitors win by neutralizing the other elders. And while I do appreciate your vouching for me, I wish you had waited until a better time instead of offering up useful information with no benefit.
@Shaddus there are two actual enemies here... the traitors win by neutralizing the other elders.
Yeah, don't confuse my lack of reading my role with a lack of reading comprehension once I do. I got that. I'm more concerned with defeating the Soulless that kill us all as opposed to the traitors that...well, we don't know if they convert us or not. I'm not interested in trying to track down traitors while the Soulless eat us from behind. I'm not saying we -shouldn't- lynch traitors, only that the Souless are the greater of two evils.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I misread the flavour text. It says that when the First circle left mount Dynara I knew the perfect way to trap Othero, and I kept him on the peak. This sounds a lot like what happened to Selenity?
I'm going to need clarification on this, because this generally describes what I learned from Silvanus when I asked to investigate Yomoigu.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So, I'm back from My holiday (little adopted niece absolutely killed in Annie, it was awesome), and I'm going to go ahead and do this.
Vote: Shaddus
Look, I get that You're a tracker, but the way You've played this game has ended up with a lot of valuable town information being spread out, and if We'll lynch Rolsand just for his style of posting, You can imagine how this ends. Besides, I'm in agreement that the canon traitors are not required to do any betraying this game, and a consigliere (though tracking instead of investigating) isn't hard to imagine any scum having.
Also @Weiwae, I've claimed (twice) that I don't have any night powers.
At this point, I'm torn between Shaddus and Ushaara. I don't think we'll ever shut up about Ushaara though, and his role is rather scummy, so I'll go ahead and
Vote: Ushaara
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
And I should say that it bothers me because your arguments yesterday made sense. Now you're making a lot less, and using consistency of your vote to explain it away.
I'm admittedly really grumpy and tired today. Blame wedding planning and family drama. Sorry if it's impacting my behavior here, I'm trying for it not to but I can't promise it isn't. I was also annoyed to find out my power had been outed and that didn't help.
So, with that said, I'll hold off posting for 24 hours and see if I'm in a better state of mind. For now, I'll unvote. If you're saying I'm not making sense right now, @Fyler, it's very possible that's true and I want to consider that.
As for @Shaddus, it's not really a stretch for me to be Hoaracle, because... I am Hoaracle? Oak Whacher, aka I "watch" myself, and I'm a reclusive 3rd circle, aka I hide in the forests of the First World. I'm sorry it's not enough to convince you. Personally I find it very odd you spun tracker as investigator only for us to fall into a tizzy about it, so I am raising my eyebrow at you.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
First night we saw two soulless fighting each other - I think that means they accidentally ended up targetting each other.
Second night...???
Third night, Weiwae thinks he's jailed Othero on the cliff. Instead Selenity is jailed up there.
If we have a bus driver, Shaddus seeing Yomoigu jailing or isolating someone is actually Weiwae's protection being swapped. Yomoigu is then trying to pretend that he jailed Selenity because in actuality he tried to do SOMETHING to her but she and Othero were swapped. This something sounds like a communication isolation skill, which would explain why Othero did not see full details of the soulless attack on Selenity.
The question then is, why is Yomoigo saying he attacked Selenity, when he should really be saying, "What? I targetted Othero! How confusing!" This means he's lying and so why would he do that? He tried to do something bad.
We've only had two nights. Also, and I've said this many times, I still think I was jailed. My role did not work the way it is supposed to last night. I'm not trying to defend Yomoigu and it is very weird him and Weiwae are claiming the same power but I don't think your explanation is right.
My explanation explains why we see a soulless target Selenity while also explaining the confusion over the jailings. We have the tracked actions of multiple people and roles converging around one core person. My explanation accounts for all of those. Leave the effect on you as "unknown" (maybe you're immune to it for some reason).
You missed my vote @Silvanus. Man I'm overwhelmed by the mass claiming. I still agree that lynching Ushaara will give some much needed clarification re traitors. But i think we do need to remember the time line is different and there is every possibility that non Canon traitors could be convinced to use the elixir. Being a non traitor elder doesn't make anyone automatically innocent, there's every chance vivet recruited someone last night that -wasnt- Ushaara.
I honestly don't know how he is still alive but chasing him seems to only be helping the soulless house while simultaneously outing important roles with little provocation. I'm no longer convinced it's the best route.
unvote
I need to think. Everything seems too knee jerk at the moment.
This debate around my claim appears to be neverending and I see why people want to lynch me, just to shut it up. But I feel like (barring a few of you), it is the only thread some of you want to pull on, to the point where you're exaggerating what exactly the gain of the lynch is, and not even considering other options.
It has turned from the reasonable "least bad option of Day 2" into a "Lynch Ushaara for other people's bad play, and oh yeah, um...we need to confirm canon Traitors can start Town."
Day 2 when I claimed, absolutely, I was the best thread to pull on. Given how that day went, I'm absolutely stunned I'm still here, but again, I had nothing to do with people claiming on Day 2 either.
I claimed my own role, but that was because I was trying to contribute the only bit of information I had that could contribute to a Town win. People are suspicious of early claims, sure, but I'm a competitive person and am incapable of passive play in these games. I realised I had a role that made me look like I was being set up as the fall guy, and tried to get out in front of that.
So, again, being suspicious of early claims, fine. But if you need an example of similar past play from me, look to the Reign game. I had what I thought was a double-edged power (Governor - could end up protecting scum as easily as I could protect town), no source of gaining information, and so used my governor power as leverage to gain information from Tekora. Similar outing of myself on Day 2 there.
Here, I also did not reveal my own power with 7/8 votes against me, and people clamouring for it, because I know exactly how important knowing when to (and when not to) reveal information is in this game.
--
Now, having fallen victim to misreading (or overreading) my own flavour messages before in the past, I think Shaddus' argument against Sylandra falls flat.
Shaddus is claiming tracker, so Sylandra vanishing into the air I think may just be Silvanus saying she didn't target anyone. Reading anything more than that from the flavour is speculation. All gods can go poof.
I'd have been delighted if she was Manteekan, simply to turn the tables of suspicion back in her face, but I completely buy that she's Hoaracle.
--
The vote has fragmented now, so whether this gets any traction or not, who knows, but I still believe that if you actually want to find a Soulless, Portius is now the best lynch.
I am aware that the following argument may be biased (all arguments are), but since I know myself to be town, I believe he knew exactly what he was doing in getting people straight back on to me this Day phase.
Worst case: Quick lynch, free pass. Best Case: Another ridiculous distracting debate over my claim, I still get lynched at the end, he skirts under the radar, free pass.
He's now given the most bizarre reason I've ever heard when under a bit of pressure to claim a role.
"Bad idea, because my power targets by rolename!"
What? Even after a night's sleep, I'm still struggling to parse that. Even if it was true, surely you'd want to know people's rolenames so you actually -can- use your power?
Comments
You can dislike how much of the argument is caught up in Ushaara's motivation as you like, but it's the lynchpin. You're saying we should lynch Ushaara because of Fain, and then some nonsensical tangent about how we should've lynched Ushaara yesterday to prevent today's claims. It's literally nonsense, which is why I'm bothered about you. There's nothing to indicate lynching Ushaara yesterday would've changed Shaddus, for example, barfing up what he knew, and you following up with a claim.
I'm sorry, but making a big stink about Ushaara coulda shoulda woulda yesterday as some explanation for today is a bad argument. You claimed without a vote on you. It's strange, it's just very strange behavior.
Just want to confirm that this is you making the statement and the forum putting it in a quote box, and not you quoting a post that I can't find?
My point about yesterday is that I thought the same thing as you but flipped on it today because Fain showed to be a Traitor. The explanation for Ushaara claiming early is to make a bluff and get people like you and me to say that Malymdia can't be a traitor in this game because the game doesn't follow canon. Their irrationality is the point of the claim.
Also I did not claim for no reason, I claimed because Weiwae's info about me being first circle was wrong. Which he then seems to have walked back on and instead said that he also misread his text, it just mentioned a meeting of the first circle. Also, why is everyone unable to read their PMs this game?
@Shaddus
Then lynch me. I'm inclined to disagree with the earlier statement about the game not winding down, because half the game has either claimed or came out about their powers. That's why I urged people to post a list of players and who has claimed what.
I spent most of the first day trying to defend someone who ended up being town ANYWAY, just because I hadn't read my role and they apparently hadn't either, and the rest of you jumped on it. Instead of being a slow and easy mafia game where we try to actually figure things out, people are pointing fingers just to point fingers. Not constructive at all.
Meanwhile, we've managed to get rid of one traitor, I believe Sylandra is another but can't prove it, haven't managed to get rid of a soulless (the actual enemy here) and you've tried (and failed) to lynch an elder. Those of you with protective or jailer powers are using them willy-nilly without a sense of direction. At least I'm checking out people that are acting suspious. I vouched for Sylandra not being soulless, I vouched for you @Yomoigu as to not being a soulless, and you got pissed off about it. The sooner we figure out who is obviously who, the sooner we can narrow down who needs to go, who has been quiet and trying to hide.
Vote Count, Day Three, sponsored by Red Masque Accessories:
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch!
Vote: Shaddus
Look, I get that You're a tracker, but the way You've played this game has ended up with a lot of valuable town information being spread out, and if We'll lynch Rolsand just for his style of posting, You can imagine how this ends. Besides, I'm in agreement that the canon traitors are not required to do any betraying this game, and a consigliere (though tracking instead of investigating) isn't hard to imagine any scum having.
Also @Weiwae, I've claimed (twice) that I don't have any night powers.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Vote: Ushaara
So, with that said, I'll hold off posting for 24 hours and see if I'm in a better state of mind. For now, I'll unvote. If you're saying I'm not making sense right now, @Fyler, it's very possible that's true and I want to consider that.
As for @Shaddus, it's not really a stretch for me to be Hoaracle, because... I am Hoaracle? Oak Whacher, aka I "watch" myself, and I'm a reclusive 3rd circle, aka I hide in the forests of the First World. I'm sorry it's not enough to convince you. Personally I find it very odd you spun tracker as investigator only for us to fall into a tizzy about it, so I am raising my eyebrow at you.
First night we saw two soulless fighting each other - I think that means they accidentally ended up targetting each other.
Second night...???
Third night, Weiwae thinks he's jailed Othero on the cliff. Instead Selenity is jailed up there.
If we have a bus driver, Shaddus seeing Yomoigu jailing or isolating someone is actually Weiwae's protection being swapped. Yomoigu is then trying to pretend that he jailed Selenity because in actuality he tried to do SOMETHING to her but she and Othero were swapped. This something sounds like a communication isolation skill, which would explain why Othero did not see full details of the soulless attack on Selenity.
The question then is, why is Yomoigo saying he attacked Selenity, when he should really be saying, "What? I targetted Othero! How confusing!" This means he's lying and so why would he do that? He tried to do something bad.
Vote: Yomoigu
I honestly don't know how he is still alive but chasing him seems to only be helping the soulless house while simultaneously outing important roles with little provocation. I'm no longer convinced it's the best route.
unvote
I need to think. Everything seems too knee jerk at the moment.
It has turned from the reasonable "least bad option of Day 2" into a "Lynch Ushaara for other people's bad play, and oh yeah, um...we need to confirm canon Traitors can start Town."
Day 2 when I claimed, absolutely, I was the best thread to pull on. Given how that day went, I'm absolutely stunned I'm still here, but again, I had nothing to do with people claiming on Day 2 either.
I claimed my own role, but that was because I was trying to contribute the only bit of information I had that could contribute to a Town win. People are suspicious of early claims, sure, but I'm a competitive person and am incapable of passive play in these games. I realised I had a role that made me look like I was being set up as the fall guy, and tried to get out in front of that.
So, again, being suspicious of early claims, fine. But if you need an example of similar past play from me, look to the Reign game. I had what I thought was a double-edged power (Governor - could end up protecting scum as easily as I could protect town), no source of gaining information, and so used my governor power as leverage to gain information from Tekora. Similar outing of myself on Day 2 there.
Here, I also did not reveal my own power with 7/8 votes against me, and people clamouring for it, because I know exactly how important knowing when to (and when not to) reveal information is in this game.
--
Now, having fallen victim to misreading (or overreading) my own flavour messages before in the past, I think Shaddus' argument against Sylandra falls flat.
Shaddus is claiming tracker, so Sylandra vanishing into the air I think may just be Silvanus saying she didn't target anyone. Reading anything more than that from the flavour is speculation. All gods can go poof.
I'd have been delighted if she was Manteekan, simply to turn the tables of suspicion back in her face, but I completely buy that she's Hoaracle.
--
The vote has fragmented now, so whether this gets any traction or not, who knows, but I still believe that if you actually want to find a Soulless, Portius is now the best lynch.
I am aware that the following argument may be biased (all arguments are), but since I know myself to be town, I believe he knew exactly what he was doing in getting people straight back on to me this Day phase.
Worst case: Quick lynch, free pass.
Best Case: Another ridiculous distracting debate over my claim, I still get lynched at the end, he skirts under the radar, free pass.
He's now given the most bizarre reason I've ever heard when under a bit of pressure to claim a role.
"Bad idea, because my power targets by rolename!"
What? Even after a night's sleep, I'm still struggling to parse that. Even if it was true, surely you'd want to know people's rolenames so you actually -can- use your power?
Vote Portius