Well, I said My vote was better sitting than not used, so I'm siding with Portius. I just don't get the incredibly strong passive power being deemed okay while the three-shot immunity that can be actively passed to Those who thematically fit with it or used to keep Maeve safe is getting called off.
Unvote Vote: Othero
Note, this isn't me vouching for Portius' confirmed innocence, because Maeve has multiple "evil" incarnations. This is me just feeling His explanation more than Othero's.
That's not how Portius said his power worked. He never said how many he started with. It is at least 2 according to him. Also he said that fae creating Gods allow him to refresh his night protections.
@Portius Have you handed off any of your immunities?
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
I'm going to pose an unpopular opinion. I think both @Portius and @Othero could be telling the truth here, and this lynch fight is over flavor text gone awry.
Yeah, It looks like you've been saying 2, that both targeted you.
Unvote Vote: Portius
So on night 1 I was really confused as to why I saw two Soulless, my power wasn't specific on how many I would see, just that I would see what Soulless would do at night. So I asked for a rules clarification. Normally I can only see 1 but because at least 1 Soulless targeted, attacked, the other I saw what both of them did. Between that and the fact that I knew Selenity was targeted even though it failed I've got to call BS. It's not all adding up.
So this is the evidence being used against Portius's claim of Maeve. Portius claims that he was targeted by two Soulless on Night 1, and Othero maintains that's not possible because his flavor text would only share two Soulless in it if they targeted one another.
Here's the thing: if "targeting" one another simply means one Soulless has to target another Soulless via "I'd like to kill so-and-so tonight," then yes, Othero has a case. Portius would be flat-out lying. But if "targeting" means at some point in the events of Night 1, the two Soulless got into a fight of some sort, then Portius is not lying and not contradicting what Othero says.
That said! I'm not against lynching either, and I intend to vote one of them today to try and clear up the mysterious Night 1 shenanigans. But I want this possibility, that they are both town, stated early on to inform my reasoning. Because there's a large part of me that thinks it could be true.
Option 1: Lynch Othero +Claims Dracnoris, which matches earlier roles we've seen of Krokano and Meridian ---+Riskier to bluff a god's name than Maeve +Claims ability to sense Soulless activity ---+Would be easy to bluff as a Soulless +Gives Soulless information regarding the following nights: ---+Night 1: Two Soulless attacked one another vying for superiority ------+Unverified, though lack of kills makes likely. Semi-verified by Portius's story below, though Othero has doubts. ---+Night 2: (Jailed) A Soulless tried to attack Selenity ------+Possible, but unverified, as Selenity was jailed +Jailed by Yomoigu on Night 2 (confirmed by Yomoigu & Shaddus tracking Yomoigu) +Could not have killed Xeii because he was jailed
Option 2: Lynch Portius +Claims Maeve, which only matches @Selenity's claim so far in terms of roles ---+Would be unlikely to be counterclaimed ---+More likely to be believed in light of Selenity's "Fates" claim being accepted ---+If flips to reveal as Maeve, then Selenity's claim of Fates is more likely to be true +Claims ability to be immune to kills based on how many fae-making gods alive + shares immunity with gods of choice ---+Highly unusual ability, second half is more difficult to bluff than the first +Claims attacked on Night 1 ---+Elaborate story involving Illith and Kethuru that matches Maeve persona, lost two immunities ---+Othero claims it doesn't match his version of events (though, see my thoughts on that above) ---+If true, means there are three potential kills at night to be wary of at night & confirms Othero's ability was right ---+If flips either of the Soulless that Othero mentioned in his flavor text, also confirms Othero's ability right +Could have possibly killed Xeii last night
So here we are. And this is why I'm Vote Portius.
I still think Portius could maybe be innocent, but I think killing him gives us more information than killing Othero. Chiefly, Portius was unaccounted for last night and could have killed Xeii. Othero, however, was jailed and could not have.
I do think it would be exceedingly difficult to bluff Maeve to the elaborate ability that Portius has, though it's a role that seems tailor-made to the flavor of the game rather than built to the meta of mafia structure. I can see why people want to believe it's a devious bluff for that reason. More importantly, though, if we lynch Portius then we know what happened Night 1, and we can verify if what Othero said--that the two Soulless fought each other for supremacy--is accurate. I'd say we get this if Portius flips Maeve, and we get this if Portius flips Soulless. That's really great information to know, and if so, means we can expect 3 kills a night here on out.
Additionally, supposing that a Soulless targeted @Selenity on a night where 2 kills were had instead of 3 would make this argument check out.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I'm going to pose an unpopular opinion. I think both @Portius and @Othero could be telling the truth here, and this lynch fight is over flavor text gone awry.
Yeah, It looks like you've been saying 2, that both targeted you.
Unvote Vote: Portius
So on night 1 I was really confused as to why I saw two Soulless, my power wasn't specific on how many I would see, just that I would see what Soulless would do at night. So I asked for a rules clarification. Normally I can only see 1 but because at least 1 Soulless targeted, attacked, the other I saw what both of them did. Between that and the fact that I knew Selenity was targeted even though it failed I've got to call BS. It's not all adding up.
So this is the evidence being used against Portius's claim of Maeve. Portius claims that he was targeted by two Soulless on Night 1, and Othero maintains that's not possible because his flavor text would only share two Soulless in it if they targeted one another.
Here's the thing: if "targeting" one another simply means one Soulless has to target another Soulless via "I'd like to kill so-and-so tonight," then yes, Othero has a case. Portius would be flat-out lying. But if "targeting" means at some point in the events of Night 1, the two Soulless got into a fight of some sort, then Portius is not lying and not contradicting what Othero says.
That said! I'm not against lynching either, and I intend to vote one of them today to try and clear up the mysterious Night 1 shenanigans. But I want this possibility, that they are both town, stated early on to inform my reasoning. Because there's a large part of me that thinks it could be true.
Option 1: Lynch Othero +Claims Dracnoris, which matches earlier roles we've seen of Krokano and Meridian ---+Riskier to bluff a god's name than Maeve +Claims ability to sense Soulless activity ---+Would be easy to bluff as a Soulless +Gives Soulless information regarding the following nights: ---+Night 1: Two Soulless attacked one another vying for superiority ------+Unverified, though lack of kills makes likely. Semi-verified by Portius's story below, though Othero has doubts. ---+Night 2: (Jailed) A Soulless tried to attack Selenity ------+Possible, but unverified, as Selenity was jailed +Jailed by Yomoigu on Night 2 (confirmed by Yomoigu & Shaddus tracking Yomoigu) +Could not have killed Xeii because he was jailed
Option 2: Lynch Portius +Claims Maeve, which only matches @Selenity's claim so far in terms of roles ---+Would be unlikely to be counterclaimed ---+More likely to be believed in light of Selenity's "Fates" claim being accepted ---+If flips to reveal as Maeve, then Selenity's claim of Fates is more likely to be true +Claims ability to be immune to kills based on how many fae-making gods alive + shares immunity with gods of choice ---+Highly unusual ability, second half is more difficult to bluff than the first +Claims attacked on Night 1 ---+Elaborate story involving Illith and Kethuru that matches Maeve persona, lost two immunities ---+Othero claims it doesn't match his version of events (though, see my thoughts on that above) ---+If true, means there are three potential kills at night to be wary of at night & confirms Othero's ability was right ---+If flips either of the Soulless that Othero mentioned in his flavor text, also confirms Othero's ability right +Could have possibly killed Xeii last night
So here we are. And this is why I'm Vote Portius.
I still think Portius could maybe be innocent, but I think killing him gives us more information than killing Othero. Chiefly, Portius was unaccounted for last night and could have killed Xeii. Othero, however, was jailed and could not have.
I do think it would be exceedingly difficult to bluff Maeve to the elaborate ability that Portius has, though it's a role that seems tailor-made to the flavor of the game rather than built to the meta of mafia structure. I can see why people want to believe it's a devious bluff for that reason. More importantly, though, if we lynch Portius then we know what happened Night 1, and we can verify if what Othero said--that the two Soulless fought each other for supremacy--is accurate. I'd say we get this if Portius flips Maeve, and we get this if Portius flips Soulless. That's really great information to know, and if so, means we can expect 3 kills a night here on out.
Additionally, supposing that a Soulless targeted @Selenity on a night where 2 kills were had instead of 3 would make this argument check out.
This is why I love Sylandra as of this game. I don't know you Sylandra but you have a mafia fan. Grats.
@Sylandra Honestly I've been thinking the same thing, that neither of us are lying. However, if that is true I'm going to just consider my power useless and untrustworthy. What I received and what Portius said happened are very different.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
@Sylandra Honestly I've been thinking the same thing, that neither of us are lying. However, if that is true I'm going to just consider my power useless and untrustworthy. What I received and what Portius said happened are very different.
Either way I think killing Portius answers a lot of questions regarding that. So I'm not against that lynch at all, though it's a shame if his claim is true and we're missing an immunity machine.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Are we really thinking about killing someone who might be Maeve?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Something isn't adding up, that's for sure. Lynching Portius will answer many questions as Sylandra outlined so well above. There is the possibility both are telling the truth, Silvanus is a sadistic bastard who is guaranteed to be laughing at our turmoil and I would not be surprised if he does this stuff on purpose. I agree with what has been stated already.
Vote Portius
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Are we really thinking about killing someone who might be Maeve?
Allegedly Maeve.
But we have no real guarantee that @Portius is who he says he is. And the calculated risk of his lynch pays off regardless of if he's town or mafia, imho.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
@Sylandra not pressuring you... Confirming what was bothering me about Portius. If knowing who targeted you is a power that needs to be explicitly granted, then how did he know that both Illith and Kethuru targeted him?
Unvote Vote Portius
Just how many powers does Maeve supposedly have?
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
@Sylandra not pressuring you... Confirming what was bothering me about Portius. If knowing who targeted you is a power that needs to be explicitly granted, then how did he know that both Illith and Kethuru targeted him?
Unvote Vote Portius
Just how many powers does Maeve supposedly have?
To clarify, Portius is claiming seeing the names of Soulless gods targeting him.
I'm claiming knowing the name of a player targeting me as part of my power.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
As always, Sylandra puts forth a beautiful argument. If your goal is pure information, there's no choice other than lynching me. But that's a bad goal.
See, lynching either of us is essentially testing if the hostiles (either traitor or soulless, they both benefit) have a janitor. They'll never have a better chance to use it. Think of all the delicious information that it would deny us. So if they have it, they're using it.
Plus, I might be unlynchable. Sylandra did ask about it, and I had to think about the question at length. Here's the thing. If I claim that I am, people will say that it's a desperate ruse to deflect a lynch. If I don't say it, they still want to lynch me. So it's good that you're considering the possibility, but I cannot meaningfully answer that question. Decide for yourself: do you think that my immunities extend to lynching (plausible, because I'm Maeve and who would expect a soulless to disguise himself as something other than a god?) and do you think I have any left?
If either of those things are true, lynching me tells you exactly nothing. So maybe you should consider things other than potential information gain.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Splitting posts because I'm liable to get lynched before I finish typing if I don't.
My argument is that Othero is outright hostile to the town and lying about his power. I call this the argument from OP. Consider what his power allows him to do:
-Immediate mod confirmation that there are multiple soulless factions (or at least that they can attack each other) through Silvanus clarifying that he sees two if they target each other. --This means that the soulless can essentially never try to play that off as someone getting blocked. They'd want to do this to throw suspicion on an innocent who got blocked.
-It can't fail. --Assuming his power triggers every turn, Othero will never fail to get useful information from his power. Since it's passive, it can't miss. How is this useful? ---Suppose that a soulless makes a kill and gets seen by a watcher. The soulless claims vigilante. Othero can immediately sink that claim just by saying he saw a soulless target that person. -----What are the odds of this? If two soulless, 50%. If three, 33%. That's gigantic for being able to outright veto one of the core scum bluffs.
This is obscenely good. Look at those odds, and remember that it's the chance of preventing most scum bluffs. I do not believe that Silvanus would include that power as written. I especially don't believe that he'd give that kind of clarification, since it mod confirms so many things that were being discussed. Things which the scum of both factions have a vested interest in manipulating the perception of.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
But I do think it's interesting that you're not the one who initially accused of Othero of lying, @Portius. Rather, Othero accused you. This implies to me that you consider his information to be accurate, regardless of how you flip (or don't flip, in the event of a janitor). This credence makes me less inclined to choose him to lynch over you as well. You didn't start questioning his information until today, when it was him vs you, and a matter of survival.
And if you can play the "What if there's a janitor?" card, please allow me to play the "What if there's a coroner?" card.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I know I just voted for Portius but I want to do it again after reading that. Sounds desperate as hell. Why'd you never make that janitor argument when everybody was saying lynch Ushaara would give us important info regardless of her alignment. And if you're town, and you have lynch immunity, I don't think you can in good faith get this close to lynch and just say "I might have lynch immunity, so stop looking at me" If you're gonna make that claim, either make it or not.
What if Othero AND Portius are both Soulless, and know they can't take each other out, so want us to do it?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Otheros powers are obviously not insanely good. Othero has t given us any clear information yet, and nobody was convinced that yomuigo might be the soulless that targeted selenity.
But I do think it's interesting that you're not the one who initially accused of Othero of lying, @Portius. Rather, Othero accused you. This implies to me that you consider his information to be accurate, regardless of how you flip (or don't flip, in the event of a janitor). This credence makes me less inclined to choose him to lynch over you as well. You didn't start questioning his information until today, when it was him vs you, and a matter of survival.
I did consider everything he said to be plausible until he mentioned Silvanus confirmation and expanded on his role a bit. Kethuru and Illith fighting and not killing anyone is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, after all. In the absence of that confirmation, it's much more reasonable.
Otheros powers are obviously not insanely good. Othero has t given us any clear information yet, and nobody was convinced that yomuigo might be the soulless that targeted selenity.
His power isn't good because it gives new information to the town. It's good because it torpedos a massive number of scum bluffs.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Comments
Can we get a post count @Silvanus?
But my own refreshing kill immunity that I can use to protect everyone in an emergency is totally balanced.
Have we slipped into the Envoy Wars?
Here's the thing: if "targeting" one another simply means one Soulless has to target another Soulless via "I'd like to kill so-and-so tonight," then yes, Othero has a case. Portius would be flat-out lying. But if "targeting" means at some point in the events of Night 1, the two Soulless got into a fight of some sort, then Portius is not lying and not contradicting what Othero says.
That said! I'm not against lynching either, and I intend to vote one of them today to try and clear up the mysterious Night 1 shenanigans. But I want this possibility, that they are both town, stated early on to inform my reasoning. Because there's a large part of me that thinks it could be true.
Option 1: Lynch Othero
+Claims Dracnoris, which matches earlier roles we've seen of Krokano and Meridian
---+Riskier to bluff a god's name than Maeve
+Claims ability to sense Soulless activity
---+Would be easy to bluff as a Soulless
+Gives Soulless information regarding the following nights:
---+Night 1: Two Soulless attacked one another vying for superiority
------+Unverified, though lack of kills makes likely. Semi-verified by Portius's story below, though Othero has doubts.
---+Night 2: (Jailed) A Soulless tried to attack Selenity
------+Possible, but unverified, as Selenity was jailed
+Jailed by Yomoigu on Night 2 (confirmed by Yomoigu & Shaddus tracking Yomoigu)
+Could not have killed Xeii because he was jailed
Option 2: Lynch Portius
+Claims Maeve, which only matches @Selenity's claim so far in terms of roles
---+Would be unlikely to be counterclaimed
---+More likely to be believed in light of Selenity's "Fates" claim being accepted
---+If flips to reveal as Maeve, then Selenity's claim of Fates is more likely to be true
+Claims ability to be immune to kills based on how many fae-making gods alive + shares immunity with gods of choice
---+Highly unusual ability, second half is more difficult to bluff than the first
+Claims attacked on Night 1
---+Elaborate story involving Illith and Kethuru that matches Maeve persona, lost two immunities
---+Othero claims it doesn't match his version of events (though, see my thoughts on that above)
---+If true, means there are three potential kills at night to be wary of at night & confirms Othero's ability was right
---+If flips either of the Soulless that Othero mentioned in his flavor text, also confirms Othero's ability right
+Could have possibly killed Xeii last night
So here we are. And this is why I'm Vote Portius.
I still think Portius could maybe be innocent, but I think killing him gives us more information than killing Othero. Chiefly, Portius was unaccounted for last night and could have killed Xeii. Othero, however, was jailed and could not have.
I do think it would be exceedingly difficult to bluff Maeve to the elaborate ability that Portius has, though it's a role that seems tailor-made to the flavor of the game rather than built to the meta of mafia structure. I can see why people want to believe it's a devious bluff for that reason. More importantly, though, if we lynch Portius then we know what happened Night 1, and we can verify if what Othero said--that the two Soulless fought each other for supremacy--is accurate. I'd say we get this if Portius flips Maeve, and we get this if Portius flips Soulless. That's really great information to know, and if so, means we can expect 3 kills a night here on out.
Additionally, supposing that a Soulless targeted @Selenity on a night where 2 kills were had instead of 3 would make this argument check out.
Vote: Portius.
Ushaara - Dylara, Ssaliss, Phoebus, Shaddus (4)
Yomoigu - Breandryn (1)
Othero - Portius, Tremula, Yomoigu (3)
Portius - Ushaara, Othero, Weiwae, Sylandra, Selenity (5)
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch!
Something isn't adding up, that's for sure. Lynching Portius will answer many questions as Sylandra outlined so well above. There is the possibility both are telling the truth, Silvanus is a sadistic bastard who is guaranteed to be laughing at our turmoil and I would not be surprised if he does this stuff on purpose. I agree with what has been stated already.
Vote Portius
Allegedly Maeve.
But we have no real guarantee that @Portius is who he says he is. And the calculated risk of his lynch pays off regardless of if he's town or mafia, imho.
Unvote
Vote Portius
Just how many powers does Maeve supposedly have?
I'm claiming knowing the name of a player targeting me as part of my power.
Subtle flavor difference, that!
Both Othero and Portius' powers are quite unusual sounding, so props to Silvanus if either of them are telling the truth.
I'm down for lynching either but will hop on the Portius train in the hope we can finish the day this time.
Vote: Portius
See, lynching either of us is essentially testing if the hostiles (either traitor or soulless, they both benefit) have a janitor. They'll never have a better chance to use it. Think of all the delicious information that it would deny us. So if they have it, they're using it.
Plus, I might be unlynchable. Sylandra did ask about it, and I had to think about the question at length. Here's the thing. If I claim that I am, people will say that it's a desperate ruse to deflect a lynch. If I don't say it, they still want to lynch me. So it's good that you're considering the possibility, but I cannot meaningfully answer that question. Decide for yourself: do you think that my immunities extend to lynching (plausible, because I'm Maeve and who would expect a soulless to disguise himself as something other than a god?) and do you think I have any left?
If either of those things are true, lynching me tells you exactly nothing. So maybe you should consider things other than potential information gain.
My argument is that Othero is outright hostile to the town and lying about his power. I call this the argument from OP. Consider what his power allows him to do:
-Immediate mod confirmation that there are multiple soulless factions (or at least that they can attack each other) through Silvanus clarifying that he sees two if they target each other.
--This means that the soulless can essentially never try to play that off as someone getting blocked. They'd want to do this to throw suspicion on an innocent who got blocked.
-It can't fail.
--Assuming his power triggers every turn, Othero will never fail to get useful information from his power. Since it's passive, it can't miss. How is this useful?
---Suppose that a soulless makes a kill and gets seen by a watcher. The soulless claims vigilante. Othero can immediately sink that claim just by saying he saw a soulless target that person.
-----What are the odds of this? If two soulless, 50%. If three, 33%. That's gigantic for being able to outright veto one of the core scum bluffs.
This is obscenely good. Look at those odds, and remember that it's the chance of preventing most scum bluffs. I do not believe that Silvanus would include that power as written. I especially don't believe that he'd give that kind of clarification, since it mod confirms so many things that were being discussed. Things which the scum of both factions have a vested interest in manipulating the perception of.
And if you can play the "What if there's a janitor?" card, please allow me to play the "What if there's a coroner?" card.
I did consider everything he said to be plausible until he mentioned Silvanus confirmation and expanded on his role a bit. Kethuru and Illith fighting and not killing anyone is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, after all. In the absence of that confirmation, it's much more reasonable.
His power isn't good because it gives new information to the town. It's good because it torpedos a massive number of scum bluffs.