Then perhaps lets just finally remove the people that do this bait/trigger and continue the conversation? I can remember very clearly where this topic started taking a turn. Very clearly.
The big concern, or the concern behind the concern, can be boiled down to 'Where will my character go' if my org is shut down. Which is a real question.
To that end, your options are relocating your character or potentially just rerolling - yes you lose your character, but you keep your financial investment. I'm generally an altaholic in RP games, though, so I can understand maybe that doesn't jive with everyone.
Thats why it is easier to keep the bigger organisations.
Bigger orgs can more easily absorb the intake, keeping their identity.
Smaller orgs will be overrun and complaining about it (and rightly so). You spend years plotting your way to a tiny dictatorship, manoeuvring, assassinating, then suddenly 30 new people knock at your door to come in, eyeing up your position. You would feel like Bilbo with a dwarf problem
D&D got brought up here for marketing potential, but it can also be used in character arcs. Go forth and find a player character that is out on these adventures and dangerous trials 100% willingly, without some kind of backstory to drive why they're doing it. There isn't a character out there that grew up, has a spouse and kids that just up and decided, "Screw it, adventure!" You have all these stories of necessary redemption, family loss, being abandoned, what have you. Rather than thinking what the RP was, perhaps look at what it could be. Examples:
A ) Lycidas, born and raised within Magnagora, spent his lifetime campaigning and attempting to spread the word of the Dark Fates and educate any that wished to hear on the tenets of his religion. Despite this, Magnagora has fallen and he must seek out new purpose. Thus he migrated to Gaudiguch, feeling he may instead share his beliefs and teachings as philosophy rather than gospel, and from there, settled into a life of pondering and bridging the gap between steadfast religion and enlightened learning.
B ) Lycidas, born and raised within Magnagora, had a burning hatred and passion that no matter what he attempted, could never fully control. Thus upon the destruction of Magnagora he sought shelter elsewhere. None would take him, as they felt was he was irredeemable, but then he saw the Light. Methrenton aided him in mastering that fury and instead formed it into a righteous drive to protect others, striking down those that would not give the same chance he was given.
C ) Lycidas, born and raised within Magnagora, was mostly secluded to himself and had minimal interactions with those he didn't closely work with. So when the destruction of Magnagora came about, he decided to take his seclusion to the ultimate level, becoming a hermit entirely and choosing not to align himself with any organization and continue to work on his writings. Despite others wishing for him to join, his decision is final, and so he wanders about the Basin as a simple man keeping out of conflict.
Those were actually three links my character, Lycidas, had and they could've gone either way in those situations if Mag gets closed or whatever. It's not about the character's past, its about how you're going to go forward with it.
While it has been discussed that credits, and possibly even artis, might be transferable to a new character, no one has mentioned gold yet. If someone made a new character due to org deletion, would they be expected to farm gold again given that it is more difficult to do so now, or would some amount of their gold transfer over?
@Makai That works for people who are still at the stage of their character arcs that allow for such changes. For some people however, those potential alternatives have been closed for a long time. Using my own character as an example, I can see things that could have happened differently in the past to lead to Nelras being in any of the four cities. Those points have passed now, and he is committed to remaining in Hallifax. I do not know if I would keep playing him or reroll if Hallifax was closed, but the impetus for him to move would need to come from the event, or at least the situation around it.
Hopefully, any event which resulted in the closure of an org would be large enough to provide RP hooks for players going forward. At the same time, it would also need to remain relatively clear of bias towards or against any of the remaining orgs, so as to both leave all options open and to avoid any appearance of admin 'interference' or 'bias'.
Would be best to make it so that - after such an org deletion - whether character X could join org Y was down to Godmin rather than players. I've seen that sometimes folks have to jump through a thousand burning hoops while naked and covered in petrol to switch orgs, and clearly that wouldn't be conducive to good things in this situation.
The jumping of hoops to gain citizenship usually means the person in question accrued a list of offenses they need to rectify. Whether it be enemy statuses, a power debt, completion of fines, what have you. The players definitely should be given say in who can join, with close supervision for anything that isn't justified.
As for Nelras, I agree that RP hooks would be necessary, but I don't believe in a 'too late' when it comes to character arcs or redefining a character. People are always changing to their situation. A character that lives 300 years still has room for development and a new interesting story to tell.
I think our best bet is some kind of character reset button. Like Retirement, but everything carries over: gold, collared beasts, credits, levels, anything besides rank/order. Start a new character, and use your RetirementOmegaTicket (patent pending) to basically retire your old character and make this one "Shaddus 2.0".
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Makai I am not saying that it would be impossible for me to change my character's situation, only that it would not happen without a significant change such as the deletion of an org. It is not so much 'too late' as 'not currently possible'. As such, the event itself would shape the next character arc to a large degree, and that I would believe that this would also be the case for other players.
Another big concern that is being discussed in multiple threads now, is what this fresh-start of sorts will include, and how it will be handled. We have some fringe cases where people want to keep the character and just move (so refunded skills and free classflex) to outright new character with all things transferred. So maybe lets work out what this will include?
1) All class skills are forgotten and refunded with lessons, even if said skillsets will exist in the new setup 2) All class/skill artifacts will be refunded at full price, even if said class/skills will exist in the new setup 3) A voucher tied to the account via registration email to allow either: a) A new character given all the possessions of the retired character, and artifacts refunded at credit/goop value (full) to spend as they choose b) A new character given a full value refund of all artifacts in credit/goop with no other possessions (manses, special items, etc) c) Transfer the possessions of the retired character, and artifacts refunded at credit/goop value (full) to spend as they choose d) Transfer the full value refund of all artifacts in credit/goop with no other possessions (manses, special items, etc)
I'd be more partial to 3a, but this allows for those to do all options. They can try to see if their character can thrive in another org, and if that doesn't work, pop the voucher. Or just skip that step and pop the voucher and move along. For clarity, I'm asking for 1, 2, and 3 whether it's a/b/c/d chosen.
Just bringing this back to recent conversations. Can we start building on this again as well? Gold has been mentioned as well and could be apart of this 'inheritance' package. Though not sure about levels personally.
One thing I was thinking of was just preserving the current name and then renaming the character. Let's say Joe wants to migrate as Moe. A dupe of Joe would be created ONLY with name, family, org and a few other things that make sense to preserve and show up on honours. Then, we'd rename Joe as Moe and remove family, org or whatever else to create a fresh start and fully refund all lessons in class skills. Moe essentially is Joe with all ownership of everything Joe had (gold, credits, lessons, manses, ships, etc.). In other words, the mechanic would be a simple renaming. If Joe's old org becomes active and Moe wants to return to Joe, we'd just switch the process. Simple?
I'd like to clarify that none of this is a done deal, we're all just speculating. Frankly, I'm still on the fence and leaning towards not reducing orgs for at least a few months, but we are still listening and taking in what you have to say. NOTHING IS DECIDED! Also, please remember that we want this thread to be a productive discussion and inserting agendas that are not relevant or counterproductive will be frowned upon.
@Estarra one thing to consider with that process would be that there may be some items which it would make no sense to transfer, for RP reasons. If I have a particular item which is of significance to my current character, and it has a rune or a seal on it to preserve it, it would make no sense for my new character to possess that item. On the other hand, I would probably want the rune/seal, which may have been bought using credits.
This may be a bit of an odd idea but what if you gave some orgs the choice to merge.
Something on a trial basis like the old guild covenants. If two orgs feel close enough they can covenant merge first of all, give that a go see what happens for a few months, then see how the roleplay falls out.
Set up a few events that give the orgs opportunities to talk and work together for stuff
Maybe the choice of what orgs to merge or group can be decided in a pure roleplay environment instead of just kind of artificially putting one on the chopping block because its got a low pop or because of X reason.
EDIT: Like events with real choices not railroads. EG a big forestal event where Seren and Glom have to choose to work togehter for a goal or if they don't work together something else happens. With neither outcome being too negative so as to not force it but give the players a chance to roleplay out a solution dependant on the situation.
The simple renaming won't sit well with people, because they're keeping nothing and are just being renamed. Either we allow the people to take their possessions in a new start or watch a lot of people get upset when condensing does happen.
Also, what if you have a manse that is specifically themed after your current character's quirks?
Manse room descriptions aren't too hard to change, but perhaps the admin will allow free modifications... As well as allow manse shortname (what you use to enter it at aetherportals) and full names to be changed as well?
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
Pretty sure you can change those names already as manse owner as is. Unless you were referring to also modifying for free. In which case, makes sense to me.
Also, what if you have a manse that is specifically themed after your current character's quirks?
Manse room descriptions aren't too hard to change, but perhaps the admin will allow free modifications... As well as allow manse shortname (what you use to enter it at aetherportals) and full names to be changed as well?
All my furniture is themed and I have also bought goop items like the butterfly cocoon.
(I probably will end up not migrating the character, but mainly because of these things, and also the Myeras family is pretty cool)
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
The simple renaming won't sit well with people, because they're keeping nothing and are just being renamed. Either we allow the people to take their possessions in a new start or watch a lot of people get upset when condensing does happen.
They're keeping everything... gold, credits, artifacts, manses, ships etc. Estarra is mostly talking from a code perspective I think, we'd be making a new 'character' to fit your old name and details, and renaming your current character. So you'd be starting new, fresh, but still, have all your possessions.
Pretty sure you can change those names already as manse owner as is. Unless you were referring to also modifying for free. In which case, makes sense to me.
Confirmed, I had forgotten; but yes, free changes all around for manses/aetherships (and perhaps refunds for items like Coraline mentioned) would likely be appreciated by people.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
One thing I was thinking of was just preserving the current name and then renaming the character. Let's say Joe wants to migrate as Moe. A dupe of Joe would be created ONLY with name, family, org and a few other things that make sense to preserve and show up on honours. Then, we'd rename Joe as Moe and remove family, org or whatever else to create a fresh start and fully refund all lessons in class skills. Moe essentially is Joe with all ownership of everything Joe had (gold, credits, lessons, manses, ships, etc.). In other words, the mechanic would be a simple renaming. If Joe's old org becomes active and Moe wants to return to Joe, we'd just switch the process. Simple?
I like this idea. Would the player still be able to log on to Joe once in a while for RP reasons, even though Joe now has no artifacts/possessions etc?
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
One thing I was thinking of was just preserving the current name and then renaming the character. Let's say Joe wants to migrate as Moe. A dupe of Joe would be created ONLY with name, family, org and a few other things that make sense to preserve and show up on honours. Then, we'd rename Joe as Moe and remove family, org or whatever else to create a fresh start and fully refund all lessons in class skills. Moe essentially is Joe with all ownership of everything Joe had (gold, credits, lessons, manses, ships, etc.). In other words, the mechanic would be a simple renaming. If Joe's old org becomes active and Moe wants to return to Joe, we'd just switch the process. Simple?
I'd like to clarify that none of this is a done deal, we're all just speculating. Frankly, I'm still on the fence and leaning towards not reducing orgs for at least a few months, but we are still listening and taking in what you have to say. NOTHING IS DECIDED! Also, please remember that we want this thread to be a productive discussion and inserting agendas that are not relevant or counterproductive will be frowned upon.
I presume you would also be willing to provide free reskinning of things like pets, customized items etc since those are very character specific.
Oh little side note but I would assume there would be quite some notice to any of the orgs getting deleted if thats the case. So that they had time to get their stuff in order?
The simple renaming won't sit well with people, because they're keeping nothing and are just being renamed. Either we allow the people to take their possessions in a new start or watch a lot of people get upset when condensing does happen.
They're keeping everything... gold, credits, artifacts, manses, ships etc. Estarra is mostly talking from a code perspective I think, we'd be making a new 'character' to fit your old name and details, and renaming your current character. So you'd be starting new, fresh, but still, have all your possessions.
Yep, I had a misread, I switched a Moe and Joe. As for Vernals, I personally say drop those. As for TA's, kind SoL on the whole name swap thing, as there's only what...two maybe three of them actively around, and they're all Glom?
Comments
To that end, your options are relocating your character or potentially just rerolling - yes you lose your character, but you keep your financial investment. I'm generally an altaholic in RP games, though, so I can understand maybe that doesn't jive with everyone.
Bigger orgs can more easily absorb the intake, keeping their identity.
Smaller orgs will be overrun and complaining about it (and rightly so). You spend years plotting your way to a tiny dictatorship, manoeuvring, assassinating, then suddenly 30 new people knock at your door to come in, eyeing up your position. You would feel like Bilbo with a dwarf problem
A ) Lycidas, born and raised within Magnagora, spent his lifetime campaigning and attempting to spread the word of the Dark Fates and educate any that wished to hear on the tenets of his religion. Despite this, Magnagora has fallen and he must seek out new purpose. Thus he migrated to Gaudiguch, feeling he may instead share his beliefs and teachings as philosophy rather than gospel, and from there, settled into a life of pondering and bridging the gap between steadfast religion and enlightened learning.
B ) Lycidas, born and raised within Magnagora, had a burning hatred and passion that no matter what he attempted, could never fully control. Thus upon the destruction of Magnagora he sought shelter elsewhere. None would take him, as they felt was he was irredeemable, but then he saw the Light. Methrenton aided him in mastering that fury and instead formed it into a righteous drive to protect others, striking down those that would not give the same chance he was given.
C ) Lycidas, born and raised within Magnagora, was mostly secluded to himself and had minimal interactions with those he didn't closely work with. So when the destruction of Magnagora came about, he decided to take his seclusion to the ultimate level, becoming a hermit entirely and choosing not to align himself with any organization and continue to work on his writings. Despite others wishing for him to join, his decision is final, and so he wanders about the Basin as a simple man keeping out of conflict.
Those were actually three links my character, Lycidas, had and they could've gone either way in those situations if Mag gets closed or whatever. It's not about the character's past, its about how you're going to go forward with it.
@Makai
That works for people who are still at the stage of their character arcs that allow for such changes. For some people however, those potential alternatives have been closed for a long time. Using my own character as an example, I can see things that could have happened differently in the past to lead to Nelras being in any of the four cities. Those points have passed now, and he is committed to remaining in Hallifax. I do not know if I would keep playing him or reroll if Hallifax was closed, but the impetus for him to move would need to come from the event, or at least the situation around it.
Hopefully, any event which resulted in the closure of an org would be large enough to provide RP hooks for players going forward. At the same time, it would also need to remain relatively clear of bias towards or against any of the remaining orgs, so as to both leave all options open and to avoid any appearance of admin 'interference' or 'bias'.
As for Nelras, I agree that RP hooks would be necessary, but I don't believe in a 'too late' when it comes to character arcs or redefining a character. People are always changing to their situation. A character that lives 300 years still has room for development and a new interesting story to tell.
As such, the event itself would shape the next character arc to a large degree, and that I would believe that this would also be the case for other players.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
(I probably will end up not migrating the character, but mainly because of these things, and also the Myeras family is pretty cool)
Would there be any possibility of being able to, from a player perspective, flag certain items to NOT be transferred in that case?
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
The rest likely so for both @Esoneyuna and @Deichtine , though with ascendancy, some essence powers may go dormant.