I will say that the Harbingers are one of the most obnoxiously difficult guilds to join in the entire game, even for internal Gloms. I kind of went through the same thing. It took me just under a week to make it through the bureaucracy into the Harbs, we have this strange law about people who rejoin the guild (even former leaders or people that have never left Glom) need full support of all three leaders, and if one of those leaders happens to be dormant (not uncommon), you're basically just watching the wyrd grass grow while you wait. Which, to me, is totally weird and excessive. It really is enormously stifling and I wish they'd do something about it. I know Eliron saw the issues it caused recently and started the process to change it, but I don't know if it went anywhere.
I do understand a cooling off period and some RP expectations, but between the three sponsor law to get into Glom and the Harbs hoop jumping, we could probably stand to make things easier for regular people (read: non raiders, evil enemies, etc) to join.
edit: And Harbs def aren't the only guild guilty of this. There's a spectrum, Harbs just happen to be the harshest. BT it notoriously easy to work with. SDs used to be totally harsh, but we turned that around some years back. Rule #1: it's a game. Don't make people work so hard just to play it.
From what I hear from the ever-paranoid Eliron, the Harbingers have also had a lot of problems with people betraying the guild. I agree that in some cases it is excessive- Astraea, for example, was completely unfair- Celina was a bit much, too, perhaps, but that was very much about roleplay and the fact that she and Keth were constantly fighting on Court at the time. Still, most of the time our goal is to roleplay with the person a bit and find out about them, as we did with @Tremula, @Silvanus, and @Lavinya. In the case of Tremula, no one said she needed the support of all three leaders- we were only trying to sort out everything that had happened and who actually said she could join the guild. There was a lot of confusion about it. But it would have been easy enough to resolve with (what was supposed to be) a simple conversation with me, Stratas(since he was there and curious), and Tremula. @Eliron has a weird sixth sense for Harbinger drama and joined in, but otherwise, I wasn't planning on asking his or Aleyah's permission at all...
As for the three sponsors requirement, I have always worked with people to try to make it as easy as possible to find sponsors and find ways around it if it's not feasible, without completely ignoring the process. I don't want anyone waiting around doing nothing for days just for an answer, but a few hours? That's not unreasonable to ask, imo. Even at that, no one wanted her to leave. We only wanted to yell at @Salome about it(sorry Salome). I believe there should be a balance between wasting someone's time and making sure that they're willing to roleplay the switch well enough to be sure they won't be leaving again in a few days. I just don't agree it's unbalanced -most- of the time. The point of the sponsor thing is (I've always thought?) to give people a chance to roleplay and get to know some of the leaders of the commune, not to keep anyone out.
The only person we've turned down in recent memory was Lavinya, and that was for one specific reason that everyone knows about, and also one of the most unpleasant things I've ever had to do. She seemed so disappointed it practically made me cry IRL. Harbingers are the worst sometimes... but we also have high standards and members that are dedicated to the rp *shrug*.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
I look at GWHO and GUILD MEMBERS as well as the current guild plans everyone's contributing towards and I feel warm inside.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Right, and I'm not pointing fingers at people. Harb guild laws and Glom sponsor laws have been around forever, people are just following the rules and enforcing them. The RP behind them isn't even bad, it's just a lot sometimes is my point. Which I think we both agree on. I dunno about Tremula's specific case, but the Harbs are notoriously not the easiest to work with on this particular issue.
That's why you should always look before you leap. Most orgs will let you start the process and work on sponsors and the like while you're still a member of your previous org, so that there is less waiting around doing nothing.
Yeah, I suppose we just moved too fast. It was almost like tearing the wrappings off of a birthday present, then looking at the wrappings when everyone's groaning and realising it was made of money. Opportunities missed, and probably an excellent reason why you shouldn't play at butt-o-face in the morning without a lot of sleep, but these things happen. Retracting my statement of absence so I can get to work redesigning things.
And here I thought the sponsorship for getting into Glomdoring was all about the applicant earning the trust of at least three Glomdorians who could then determine if they were really ready to dedicate themselves to the Wyrd and swear NMBG in earnest.
And to reinforce our democratic tendencies.
I mean, when someone asks for Rancoura's sponsorship, they get something similar to an interrogation of "Why do you want to join? What do you know about Glomdoring and its Spirits so far? How do you think you can help spread the glory of the Wyrd?" - Just to make sure that it isn't a case of "I didn't like my old org anymore and Glom is the next best thing, so it'll do."
But maybe I'm RP'ing it wrong.
*Edited for that grammar.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
4
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Serenwilde does have one of the more ridiculous joining procedures. A series of Ambassadors have tried to work on it, and very little has changed. It's overly-cumbersome, not always clear, and creates a lot of frustration.
Sounds like the Harbingers have the same problem as the Serenguard, a series of people (almost in a row) who joined, were horribly bad fits, and left under bad circumstances; hence, a different joining procedure. If there are no problems, the process is easy, and needs just a 2-3 day waiting period. But if there are problems or objections, Lord have mercy... it's a nightmare. I should probably look at that.
And @Rancoura sounds entirely reasonable in what she expects.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I regret not being present at the time the whole shenanigan happened. I would have exerted more effort towards getting Tremula to join another guild instead of, I dunno, applying pressure with the full knowledge that it can drive a person out. I would be very surprised if those involved were wholly unaware of the possible consequences of their actions. Elitist RP can be had - it can be fun, but it can definitely be done in a more classy manner. I can rp as a jerkface holier-than-thou GM, sure, but over time, I'd end up with a dead guild.
I, for one, do not regret welcoming Lavinya and Ellowyn to the SDs despite the many raised eyebrows Siam may have gotten for welcoming Lav into the SDs while Lav still being part of Morgfyre's order, I can still rest easy as a player because I have established(through several private rp interactions) some groundwork addressing the matter. I still have to rp with the Glom gods regarding this, but that will come over time. Plus the guild's become more active than ever - both from an IC and from an OOC guild development perspective. The roleplay is definitely there and I certainly welcome the changes, especially the new avenues to be explored besides the usual GLOMDORING/NIGHT IS AWESOMEOMG.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I don't think anything is wrong with Rancoura's expectations necessarily. The issue is as Everiine stated, it's not the expectations that are an issue, it's when the train falls off the rails.
All I expected from this instead of the brouhaha this situation became was a casual slap on the wrist. Instead it turned in a literal witch-hunt were accusations were immediately thrown rather than maybe taking a deep breath and thinking about how sometimes things can't necessarily follow protocol at some periods especially when it comes to those who are wanting to move fast and efficiently to settle down to a play they enjoy. And while I am all for laws and protocol, sometimes those things aren't followed due to the circumstances. Instead of the circumstances being justified, they were simply ignored to cause drama for drama's sake.
What makes me also uncomfortable is that I'm fairly sure that many other people in the past as Regent other than myself have done some things similar in emergency situations and had no problems, perhaps due to their parentage or connections. It was a big mess that came off as both aggressive and surprisingly discouraging to me, who has done nothing but try to expedite a process so we keep a good player - As it should be. If you want to keep good players, sometimes laws have to be broken or maneuvered around.
In my opinion someone's paranoia OOCly does not justify RP behavior to the course of harassment in another character, nor does it justify someone else's RP behavior to a seriously extreme degree where it makes me feel OOCly uncomfortable. I don't believe in any sixth-sense when it comes to people 'breaking the law,' I believe in people contacting people to make sure that whoever is not doing what they want them to be doing to be pressured into an action which otherwise would have not been made.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
Actually, past precedent in Glomdoring has always been to question when the rules were worked around. It has nothing to do with parentage or support, and it has more to do with nobody being above the law. As always, if one wants things to work differently, it is far better to change the law than to just ignore it (ignoring it causes headaches).
Actually, past precedent in Glomdoring has always been to question when the rules were worked around. It has nothing to do with parentage or support, and it has more to do with nobody being above the law. As always, if one wants things to work differently, it is far better to change the law than to just ignore it (ignoring it causes headaches).
It is absolutely unfair to call it "paranoia".
Kethaera referred to it as paranoia. There was no intention of an insult meant. <- Bolded for extra emphasis.
And I don't mind being questioned, I mind being attacked about it. If it wasn't taken with such aggression then this probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. But then I suppose it all comes down to causing drama for drama's sake and defining 'what is an attack.' And hey, maybe I'm just sensitive. It's all going to be water under the bridge in a few days.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2015
EHHHHHHHHHHHHH. I'm going to disagree with Xenthos on this one. We (collective we) have certainly swept some law breaking under the rug when it was convenient or necessary. Remember when Krellan broke Harb law and tricked a new Secretary into letting him in after the Harbs already told him "no, you can't use us just for our skills,"...pre classflex era. The Harbs basically had to drag the court kicking and screaming to actually punish Krellan because Krellan was popular with the Glom powers. There have been instances that have absolutely been smoothed over based on political popularity, incidents I've been directly involved in.
Actually, past precedent in Glomdoring has always been to question when the rules were worked around. It has nothing to do with parentage or support, and it has more to do with nobody being above the law. As always, if one wants things to work differently, it is far better to change the law than to just ignore it (ignoring it causes headaches).
It is absolutely unfair to call it "paranoia".
I'm not entirely certain I agree with everything you said and definitely not with you emboldening "always".
I suppose people RPing false memory is an ample reason to attack another as well. I'm not sure I agree with some of the logic used within this thread under the guise of RP. I have seen numerous rules worked around within Glomdoring, if for no other reason than to spite another communemate. No comment on the parentage and paranoia remarks and responses.
I personally like consistency. If a process is good enough for one, it should be good enough for everyone.
I admit to being ready to flip a table, when Tremula waltzed in as a member of Drocilla's order, with a sponsor lined up to join the Harbingers. Because I had to leap through all sorts of hoops and interviews and wait for referendums and was denied my guild choice in the end. To think someone in a very similar situation was about to avoid all of that had me pretty upset, I won't lie. I was left in an awful position thanks to the Harbingers - fork out for a class change that I really had no interest in (unable to keep any of my guild skills, my high magic/tinkering and brewmeistery skills now suddenly also useless, the runes on my instrument including gripping and the musical enhancement one, not to mention my brand new and not cheap damage buff runes), or give up the years of work in becoming Morgfyre orderhead and avatar with a trans cult, which I would never ever be able to get again. Given I had been approved to join the commune, I was beyond gutted to learn the Harbs would still deny me. You think it upset you, @Kethaera? Try being in my shoes. I like to think I was one of those situations where a little leniency would go a long way - I was guildmaster and Vernal Ascendant, which I was already throwing away and burning bridges over to join Glomdoring. It was another big fat slap on the face. Who gives up that sort of stuff unless they really, really want out?
I can't thank Siam enough for taking a chance on me. He was eager to rp with me and seemed to look forward to the opportunity to show me that Night and Glomdoring are superior to all else. Like, Harbs were very much 'you need these exact beliefs and attitudes' (I heard a little birdy say Eliron denied me because he thought I'd join with my own wrong ideas about everything instead of being open to teaching), and Siam was 'psh, you're current beliefs and attitudes are irrelevant, you will see the glory of Night and embrace her fully' etc etc.
BUT. After that rant, because yes I am still bitter about the credit loss and I really liked being a bard, goddamnit - I never started a forums crusade or held it against the players for holding to their rp. I really really wish their rp had been otherwise, for sure. I did almost alllllllmost go to Gaudi because they were allowing me in without question, but I wanted to play with my friends. Right, I do have a point. I get guilds have been burned in the past, but making it almost impossible for anyone to join just in case they hurt you doesn't fix anything. Just keeps you a small guild. This IS just a game and no one really wants it to feel like you have to do another job just to be able to play it.
I don't know all the other drama that went on. But I do know that while there are times leaders get away with bending rules and skipping procedure, it's less likely to happen if it is seen as an obvious bias. Why hurry a long time org-hopper who is a follower of Drocilla into the commune and guild? Unless she's a close, personal friend. I sure would have liked to not wait the week to join Glomdoring, I'm sure a few hours wouldn't have killed Tremula. Always expect people to get annoyed if you make exceptions to the rules, be pleasantly surprised if they don't.
Also quitting an org you so wanted to join in such a hurry you couldn't wait and were pushed through just shows why people were nervous in the first place. You proved them right and also caused Salome to lose credibility for supporting you that way. She was clearly just being biased for a friend who through a tantrum at not getting their way and quit, clearly didn't really want to join the forest! (See how these things can be easily interpreted?)
7
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2015
For the record, Tremula was inducted into Vira's order by Salome at the same time. She did have an easier time than you, admittedly, but the circumstances were different.
IMHO, any Glom guild that rejects a person when Glom itself has accepted is acting in direct defiance to "Nothing Matters But Glomdoring." That inconsistency drives me a little batty. It's not "Nothing matters but Glomdoring unless WhateverGuild disagrees." Which is neither here nor there but IJS.
Also quitting an org you so wanted to join in such a hurry you couldn't wait and were pushed through just shows why people were nervous in the first place. You proved them right and also caused Salome to lose credibility for supporting you that way. She was clearly just being biased for a friend who through a tantrum at not getting their way and quit, clearly didn't really want to join the forest! (See how these things can be easily interpreted?)
I can see how this can be easily misinterpreted, as well as your upset over the issue - But the difference is, at least the big difference to me is that you came from an enemy org. And, while it does appear I was shuffling through for a friend I might also remind everyone that Tremula was also a member of Hallifax who Glomdoring is now allied with - And Salome, not really understanding of the stigma of the Enchantress or Morgfyre for that matter only sees value where it lies and that's with people like you and @Tremula. And the law had been changed to allow other worshipers for @Lavinya and any others, and that had been clarified in the Court as -any- others. But she was planning to be in Vira anyway. So, I guess that's another discrepancy. But over all, I'm understanding of your frustrations @Lavinya as I'm one of the people who made attempts for the Harbinger's to see some reason and open-mindedness in the RP. Alas, that has failed as well.
Edit: I inserted smiley faces so that this is seen as merely adding additional information. I'm no longer grumpy over this stuff.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
I thought that it required a Court vote to accept any individual in a "foreign" deity's order? It doesn't seem like the Glomdoring laws scroll was updated with that change, but I seem to recall voting once on whether or not to change the law, and once again on whether or not to allow Lavinya's specific exception. Maybe I'm just confused though!
If she actually did leave Drocilla's order to join Glomdoring then that's not an issue (and hopefully makes Lavinya feel better). I do think that how we handled Lavinya is an example of how it should be done though, we explicitly redefined the law so as to not be an exception for one individual but to allow exceptions to be handled by the Court through a process instead of arbitrarily. Yes, it took additional time. I am very pleased with her being willing to allow us to work through the RP issues inherent in her wishes, and give us the time to come to a compromise situation we could all move forward with.
Well, she did leave the order after it was brought up. She was already a citizen by then.
A good reason for not rushing the process then, I guess-- I'd hope that would have come up during interviews for sponsorship (and could then get rectified before, not after).
Though sometimes people get in while being a lich, too. I'm looking at you, Leolamins. /eye.
Well, she did leave the order after it was brought up. She was already a citizen by then.
A good reason for not rushing the process then, I guess-- I'd hope that would have come up during interviews for sponsorship (and could then get rectified before, not after).
Though sometimes people get in while being a lich, too. I'm looking at you, Leolamins. /eye.
Yeah, and that was part of the problem, and something that I never heard either before now. Considering the issue with Lavinya joining the Harbingers, it would have been a natural assumption that another outside-deity-follower would cause the same guild problems- so don't force it through. She needed to ask someone capable of inducting her anyway, so I didn't understand the need for that much haste.
All I expected from this instead of the brouhaha this situation became was a casual slap on the wrist. Instead it turned in a literal witch-hunt were accusations were immediately thrown rather than maybe taking a deep breath and thinking about how sometimes things can't necessarily follow protocol at some periods especially when it comes to those who are wanting to move fast and efficiently to settle down to a play they enjoy. And while I am all for laws and protocol, sometimes those things aren't followed due to the circumstances. Instead of the circumstances being justified, they were simply ignored to cause drama for drama's sake.
What makes me also uncomfortable is that I'm fairly sure that many other people in the past as Regent other than myself have done some things similar in emergency situations and had no problems, perhaps due to their parentage or connections. It was a big mess that came off as both aggressive and surprisingly discouraging to me, who has done nothing but try to expedite a process so we keep a good player - As it should be. If you want to keep good players, sometimes laws have to be broken or maneuvered around.
Plenty of times that has happened, and I completely disagree that it never caused problems. Someone often called the person in question on it, and drama was created. The times I can remember it happening, it did not end well.
However, I am not thrilled with the reputation that seems to be implied that I(or anyone else involved) am "causing drama for drama's sake". Yes, I like arguing, and I like conflict. I think both make the game more interesting, and are the entire point of roleplay. But the debates I enjoy are more based around -roleplay- and philosophical than personal conflicts. Does Night's teachings allow us to lie to our allies?- sure, let's discuss that. But calling people out on things I feel they're doing wrong is still really, freaking, hard. As is defending myself on personal attacks. I rarely do that in real life, and I have left orgs that required me to do it in the game too often... so, if I bring anything like that up, it's because it's important or bothering me on some level as a player... NEVER because I WANT that drama. It's not pleasant.
As for the following of procedure, there are times when I've bent the rules for special circumstances. @Mistral, most recently, and he did come from an enemied org. Because it was roleplayed, and it had already been decided in advance. That's really all I expect from most people. Even then, I didn't break the laws or ignore protocol. If you don't like the protocol, then we should discuss it- not go around and change it for the sake of granting exceptions to friends.
In my opinion someone's paranoia OOCly does not justify RP behavior to the course of harassment in another character, nor does it justify someone else's RP behavior to a seriously extreme degree where it makes me feel OOCly uncomfortable. I don't believe in any sixth-sense when it comes to people 'breaking the law,' I believe in people contacting people to make sure that whoever is not doing what they want them to be doing to be pressured into an action which otherwise would have not been made.
I don't know that there is any ooc paranoia going on. Not all roleplay is pleasant. Some of us feel that even when it isn't, it might be necessary for some other reason. I don't want to upset anyone on an ooc level, but you should understand that there are actions that will make my character angry- which does not mean that -I- would be angry with -you- at the same time, I'm just kind of at a loss for what would be a fair way to resolve it. I don't threaten, insult(most of the time), or curse at people, but not getting emotional is too much to ask. If you wanted to talk about it later, or in a different way, that would have been fine.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
A few comments on the Harbingers, since they have been under such discussion in this thread.
@Celina and @Astraea did run afoul of a guild law meant to decrease drama. It was amended almost immediately after we had full leadership again, and the new laws are available in the guild law help file. This change was instituted because the original time limit on the three-person requirement that relied on one of the leaders being absent proved to be ineffective if one guild leader occasionally logged in but simply never voted on the matter. That is the same law, by the way, that meant that Krellan was immediately cast out of the guild after the incident that Celina mentions and was barred from rejoining until he reached an agreement with Eliron and the rest of guild leadership that gave some indication that he would respect guild law going forward. After that, he was a productive member of the guild and kept in line with guild law as far as I know. Those who tried to push him through were also dealt with in time, some by learning to work with the Harbingers if it involved a guild matter.
Exceptions to law have been made in the past, including by Regents. When it involved the Harbingers, the first time was met with polite protest, which was ignored. The rest have been met with a spiky wall of STAY OUT OF GUILD BUSINESS. This is an entirely IC response and, from my perspective, a reasonable one to a problem that has happened multiple times.
The only requirement Tremula was under was the guild sponsor she should
have had to join the commune. For every Harbinger, including Eliron,
that pretty much includes no more than a simple entrance interview along
the lines of, "Why do you want to join? What do you know about the
Harbingers?" I think this is actually a valuable chance for people to
learn more about a guild they haven't been a part of before joining, as
well as a good chance for guild leadership to get to know incoming
members.
The only requirement Tremula was under was the guild sponsor she should
have had to join the commune. For every Harbinger, including Eliron,
that pretty much includes no more than a simple entrance interview along
the lines of, "Why do you want to join? What do you know about the
Harbingers?" I think this is actually a valuable chance for people to
learn more about a guild they haven't been a part of before joining, as
well as a good chance for guild leadership to get to know incoming
members.
Technically, she already had that, too- supposedly. No one shared any information about it with the rest of the guild, which was the problem. I wanted to speak to her so there wouldn't be any question about her place in the guild after the fact. And yeah, it is good to know incoming members.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
The only requirement Tremula was under was the guild sponsor she should
have had to join the commune. For every Harbinger, including Eliron,
that pretty much includes no more than a simple entrance interview along
the lines of, "Why do you want to join? What do you know about the
Harbingers?" I think this is actually a valuable chance for people to
learn more about a guild they haven't been a part of before joining, as
well as a good chance for guild leadership to get to know incoming
members.
Technically, she already had that, too- supposedly. No one shared any information about it with the rest of the guild, which was the problem. I wanted to speak to her so there wouldn't be any question about her place in the guild after the fact. And yeah, it is good to know incoming members.
Agreed, had we been told that she did have a viable sponsor instead of told that she either had a different, ineligible guild sponsor or no guild sponsor at all, she wouldn't have needed anything else to join the guild.
Getting back to what the thread's for, I'll be less active for a while. All I do lately is log on and chase numbers, and it's boring me to tears. Going to play some Steam backlog instead.
Getting back to what the thread's for, I'll be less active for a while. All I do lately is log on and chase numbers, and it's boring me to tears. Going to play some Steam backlog instead.
But you just welcomed me back. What about our meteors, @Tarkenton? Our bromance shall light up the Night sky for all to see.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
If you catch me playing Lusternia I probably shouldn't be. So much STUFF to do and to grade. Should mellow out in a week (hopefully).
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Finally actually moving after unexpected limbo for a bit. Will be able to do more than check messages again when internet is up and connected and apartment is slightly unearthed from boxes.
On the plus side, this should be the last of the crazy-busy things keeping me from playing much!
Sao will be busy with job applications and travelling to different cities! Wish me luck!! I'll try to be around when I can and I'll reply to messages and stuff!
Comments
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
Sounds like the Harbingers have the same problem as the Serenguard, a series of people (almost in a row) who joined, were horribly bad fits, and left under bad circumstances; hence, a different joining procedure. If there are no problems, the process is easy, and needs just a 2-3 day waiting period. But if there are problems or objections, Lord have mercy... it's a nightmare. I should probably look at that.
And @Rancoura sounds entirely reasonable in what she expects.
What makes me also uncomfortable is that I'm fairly sure that many other people in the past as Regent other than myself have done some things similar in emergency situations and had no problems, perhaps due to their parentage or connections. It was a big mess that came off as both aggressive and surprisingly discouraging to me, who has done nothing but try to expedite a process so we keep a good player - As it should be. If you want to keep good players, sometimes laws have to be broken or maneuvered around.
In my opinion someone's paranoia OOCly does not justify RP behavior to the course of harassment in another character, nor does it justify someone else's RP behavior to a seriously extreme degree where it makes me feel OOCly uncomfortable. I don't believe in any sixth-sense when it comes to people 'breaking the law,' I believe in people contacting people to make sure that whoever is not doing what they want them to be doing to be pressured into an action which otherwise would have not been made.
It is absolutely unfair to call it "paranoia".
And I don't mind being questioned, I mind being attacked about it. If it wasn't taken with such aggression then this probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. But then I suppose it all comes down to causing drama for drama's sake and defining 'what is an attack.' And hey, maybe I'm just sensitive. It's all going to be water under the bridge in a few days.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with everything you said and definitely not with you emboldening "always".
I suppose people RPing false memory is an ample reason to attack another as well. I'm not sure I agree with some of the logic used within this thread under the guise of RP. I have seen numerous rules worked around within Glomdoring, if for no other reason than to spite another communemate. No comment on the parentage and paranoia remarks and responses.
I admit to being ready to flip a table, when Tremula waltzed in as a member of Drocilla's order, with a sponsor lined up to join the Harbingers. Because I had to leap through all sorts of hoops and interviews and wait for referendums and was denied my guild choice in the end. To think someone in a very similar situation was about to avoid all of that had me pretty upset, I won't lie. I was left in an awful position thanks to the Harbingers - fork out for a class change that I really had no interest in (unable to keep any of my guild skills, my high magic/tinkering and brewmeistery skills now suddenly also useless, the runes on my instrument including gripping and the musical enhancement one, not to mention my brand new and not cheap damage buff runes), or give up the years of work in becoming Morgfyre orderhead and avatar with a trans cult, which I would never ever be able to get again. Given I had been approved to join the commune, I was beyond gutted to learn the Harbs would still deny me. You think it upset you, @Kethaera? Try being in my shoes. I like to think I was one of those situations where a little leniency would go a long way - I was guildmaster and Vernal Ascendant, which I was already throwing away and burning bridges over to join Glomdoring. It was another big fat slap on the face. Who gives up that sort of stuff unless they really, really want out?
I can't thank Siam enough for taking a chance on me. He was eager to rp with me and seemed to look forward to the opportunity to show me that Night and Glomdoring are superior to all else. Like, Harbs were very much 'you need these exact beliefs and attitudes' (I heard a little birdy say Eliron denied me because he thought I'd join with my own wrong ideas about everything instead of being open to teaching), and Siam was 'psh, you're current beliefs and attitudes are irrelevant, you will see the glory of Night and embrace her fully' etc etc.
BUT. After that rant, because yes I am still bitter about the credit loss and I really liked being a bard, goddamnit - I never started a forums crusade or held it against the players for holding to their rp. I really really wish their rp had been otherwise, for sure. I did almost alllllllmost go to Gaudi because they were allowing me in without question, but I wanted to play with my friends. Right, I do have a point. I get guilds have been burned in the past, but making it almost impossible for anyone to join just in case they hurt you doesn't fix anything. Just keeps you a small guild. This IS just a game and no one really wants it to feel like you have to do another job just to be able to play it.
I don't know all the other drama that went on. But I do know that while there are times leaders get away with bending rules and skipping procedure, it's less likely to happen if it is seen as an obvious bias. Why hurry a long time org-hopper who is a follower of Drocilla into the commune and guild? Unless she's a close, personal friend. I sure would have liked to not wait the week to join Glomdoring, I'm sure a few hours wouldn't have killed Tremula. Always expect people to get annoyed if you make exceptions to the rules, be pleasantly surprised if they don't.
Also quitting an org you so wanted to join in such a hurry you couldn't wait and were pushed through just shows why people were nervous in the first place. You proved them right and also caused Salome to lose credibility for supporting you that way. She was clearly just being biased for a friend who through a tantrum at not getting their way and quit, clearly didn't really want to join the forest! (See how these things can be easily interpreted?)
Edit: I inserted smiley faces so that this is seen as merely adding additional information. I'm no longer grumpy over this stuff.
If she actually did leave Drocilla's order to join Glomdoring then that's not an issue (and hopefully makes Lavinya feel better). I do think that how we handled Lavinya is an example of how it should be done though, we explicitly redefined the law so as to not be an exception for one individual but to allow exceptions to be handled by the Court through a process instead of arbitrarily. Yes, it took additional time. I am very pleased with her being willing to allow us to work through the RP issues inherent in her wishes, and give us the time to come to a compromise situation we could all move forward with.
Though sometimes people get in while being a lich, too. I'm looking at you, Leolamins. /eye.
I don't know that there is any ooc paranoia going on. Not all roleplay is pleasant. Some of us feel that even when it isn't, it might be necessary for some other reason. I don't want to upset anyone on an ooc level, but you should understand that there are actions that will make my character angry- which does not mean that -I- would be angry with -you- at the same time, I'm just kind of at a loss for what would be a fair way to resolve it. I don't threaten, insult(most of the time), or curse at people, but not getting emotional is too much to ask. If you wanted to talk about it later, or in a different way, that would have been fine.
@Celina and @Astraea did run afoul of a guild law meant to decrease drama. It was amended almost immediately after we had full leadership again, and the new laws are available in the guild law help file. This change was instituted because the original time limit on the three-person requirement that relied on one of the leaders being absent proved to be ineffective if one guild leader occasionally logged in but simply never voted on the matter. That is the same law, by the way, that meant that Krellan was immediately cast out of the guild after the incident that Celina mentions and was barred from rejoining until he reached an agreement with Eliron and the rest of guild leadership that gave some indication that he would respect guild law going forward. After that, he was a productive member of the guild and kept in line with guild law as far as I know. Those who tried to push him through were also dealt with in time, some by learning to work with the Harbingers if it involved a guild matter.
Exceptions to law have been made in the past, including by Regents. When it involved the Harbingers, the first time was met with polite protest, which was ignored. The rest have been met with a spiky wall of STAY OUT OF GUILD BUSINESS. This is an entirely IC response and, from my perspective, a reasonable one to a problem that has happened multiple times.
The only requirement Tremula was under was the guild sponsor she should have had to join the commune. For every Harbinger, including Eliron, that pretty much includes no more than a simple entrance interview along the lines of, "Why do you want to join? What do you know about the Harbingers?" I think this is actually a valuable chance for people to learn more about a guild they haven't been a part of before joining, as well as a good chance for guild leadership to get to know incoming members.
On the plus side, this should be the last of the crazy-busy things keeping me from playing much!