I'm all for leaving the game the $%@#$ alone. Just because the visible playerbase is low at times, that doesn't mean we're doing poorly. We've went downhill from where we used to be. Big deal.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
If newbies could just see everyone online on who knstead of having to learn Planar to Transcendant and if everyone would put their cloaking gems away, we wouldn't even need to delete any orgs.
I got two of my friends to play and both of them said there seemed to be very few people online, when actually there were like 20-30. In my previous game there would only be 10 people on but the admins would make people who recently logged out show on who as "Aura" to make it seem like there were more people online. Obviously don't do that, but at least show whoever is online to the newbies so they can see that it's not empty.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
If newbies could just see everyone online on who knstead of having to learn Planar to Transcendant and if everyone would put their cloaking gems away, we wouldn't even need to delete any orgs.
I got two of my friends to play and both of them said there seemed to be very few people online, when actually there were like 20-30. In my previous game there would only be 10 people on but the admins would make people who recently logged out show on who as "Aura" to make it seem like there were more people online. Obviously don't do that, but at least show whoever is online to the newbies so they can see that it's not empty.
The people noticing the drop in population are the admins. They can see you despite planes, manses, cloakinggems. No producer or admin would of made this topic if there wasn’t a real problem, as this topic is one of the biggest red flags don’t bother to join a game can have, especially since the game only just went F2P.
Anyone that has played the game for a while can feel the lack of population. Now is not the time for head in the sand there is no problem mentality. If the reference for Lusternia doing fine is another game only has 10 people around then Kethuru help us all.
I don't think newbies need to see who is online. They need to -hear- from who is online. This isn't about reducing stealth from players who pay for it. It is about encouraging players to engage with new players.
A friend recently returned and I told them about the WELCOMEBACK pack and they said to me "you know the stuff that USED to get you talking to older players " and there is always a catch every time we make the game a little easier for noobs and allow players to be more self sufficient. It is similar to why trades are less lucrative now. Everyone is trans everything and people just don't need to venture to market any more.
It's probably been discussed before at length, and only tangentially related to the topic at hand, but what does the game actually lose if we remove Thirdeye showing location on who and refund all cloaking gems?
Is there a point if it's not going to change much?
For me, the place I really feel low pop is like guilds being difficult to progress in and not being fleshed out cause it can be like one or two people working away at stuff. There's also like org shops that are, basically, empty or even shut down. (That's not an inconvenience with the plex but it just does drive home the emptiness)
Is there a point if it's not going to change much?
For me, the place I really feel low pop is like guilds being difficult to progress in and not being fleshed out cause it can be like one or two people working away at stuff. There's also like org shops that are, basically, empty or even shut down. (That's not an inconvenience with the plex but it just does drive home the emptiness)
This is pretty much my story with the Goonsquad. Guild basically died ages ago, shortly after I was encouraged to join even if I didn't fit the ethos. Now I'm usually the only one around most of the time and I feel like the newbies can easily feel that I'm a terrible fit for it, but at the same time the thought of quitting and essentially leaving it completely empty except for Tortuga also feels terrible.
It's probably been discussed before at length, and only tangentially related to the topic at hand, but what does the game actually lose if we remove Thirdeye showing location on who and refund all cloaking gems?
If you do just that, you can use WHO to find all those people who no longer have cloaking gems. For example, if I go 1 room into the Undervault and do WHO, everyone who shows up at that point is in the UV (and has a decent chance of being hunting kephbugs or illithoids if I want to go mess with them). Yet it doesn't help with the rest of the issue, which is that if people aren't on the same continent as you, they'll still not show.
The most recent general idea which was mostly liked (except for some disagreement amongst people who have that EWHO mirror) was:
1) Cloaking gem doesn't remove you from WHO, simply removes your location.
2) WHO will see everyone on all planes except manses (possibly excluding aetherbubbles as well). If the person is on the same plane as you and does not have a gem, you still see their location (just as you would now). If on another plane/continent or the person has a cloaking gem, you get no location.
3) EWHO continues to function exactly as it does now (showing you the room name & plane of everyone without a cloaking gem regardless of plane), but all the people with gems are now included in the list as well (sans location). Right now EWHO does show you uncloaked people in manses, but it probably should not include a cloaked person in a manse.
If newbies could just see everyone online on who knstead of having to learn Planar to Transcendant and if everyone would put their cloaking gems away, we wouldn't even need to delete any orgs.
I got two of my friends to play and both of them said there seemed to be very few people online, when actually there were like 20-30. In my previous game there would only be 10 people on but the admins would make people who recently logged out show on who as "Aura" to make it seem like there were more people online. Obviously don't do that, but at least show whoever is online to the newbies so they can see that it's not empty.
The people noticing the drop in population are the admins. They can see you despite planes, manses, cloakinggems. No producer or admin would of made this topic if there wasn’t a real problem, as this topic is one of the biggest red flags don’t bother to join a game can have, especially since the game only just went F2P.
Anyone that has played the game for a while can feel the lack of population. Now is not the time for head in the sand there is no problem mentality. If the reference for Lusternia doing fine is another game only has 10 people around then Kethuru help us all.
Wasn't saying it was fine, but was pointing out a reason why two people I invited didn't stick around.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
Quick people, go inactive so your organization doesn't shut down!
#outplayed
I mean, the alternative is... quick people, just log in to make your org look more active than it is and make sure to shut down all your alts anywhere else for the next little while.
I figure they can just get stats from the past while and judge on that.
How active an org has been over the past 12 months for example. Get a good long sample and judge the orgs based on that.
I'd just pull the data as far back as you can tbh. But pop still isn't the greatest metric because it's just data not information. You'd want to be able to see which orgs attract more first timers, map out when dips in activity have happened, figure out if an org is performing at it's peak or whether it needs fixes to get it there.
Because you'd want to be able to work out stuff like... (this is just theoretical info you could find)
Org A is one of the top performers in attracting new players, but they have difficulty with retention of certain player demographics, most likely because of the following issues which leaves their pop a little bit lower than Org B. If we fix up the issues they have they could retain more people and grow much larger.
Org B doesn't attract as many truly new players but instead gets converts from certain player demographics, they beat out Org A for population and they appear to have fewer resolvable issues than Org A. But, if there's not much you can do to improve them and they're only just beating out Org A is it worth keeping them.
But then you also need to weight that with stuff like, would Glom be able to do something to appeal to the "light" Nature types more than Seren could appeal to "dark" types? If Seren can attract players who are interested in darker nature than that might mean it's the more effective choice.
Yea that makes sense. They have stats on stuff like newbie retention and other random stuff already but yea the more data the better for sure.
Agreed that we don't need to do anything to the cloaking gems and whatnot. A better first step would be to no longer protect manse endless afk. Countless times I'll see 1 or 2 people online but not on a list, and just know it's someone logged in that has no plans of speaking or interacting anyway.
Even if you don't remove cloaking gems, if it was possible to show everyone on all the planes on WHO it would make a ton of difference to a real newbie who just heard of the game and wants to try it out. I haven't seen the concept of different planes of existence in other games, and it's a unique thing to here I believe, but it also means that this is a unique problem.
I agree with the suggestion of modifying the cloaking gem to just hide the location and not on WHO, but I also understand people who paid money to buy artefacts not liking the idea of nerfing them, so.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
It is not really a nerf to the artifact imo. It still would do exactly what I bought it to do: show me the room names & planes of everyone without a cloaking gem. You would not get any of that without the artifact. (Note that this was the disagreement; Lavinya wanted a refund, Yendor and I pointed out it was not really a nerf, and Ellowyn flag-bombed so it is not really possible to tell what she thought since she never bothered to post; giving her the benefit of the doubt would indicate that she has the mirror and would want a refund).
Not sure how many people actually have the thing, but I like it. It makes the game look more populated. I think that is a good thing to share with more people.
@Xenthos Sorry, still going to have to disagree with you on the cloaking gem for the same reasons I gave in the other thread about it. For reference, I don't have the mirror. It is just that I bought the cloaking gem for what is apparently the opposite reason to a lot of other people.
Maybe it's bad form to bring up another game, but Starmourn is nice in the sense that you can see everyone online - but then they don't have an ability to see where people are or scry. Could have something like that - the cloaking gem still works the same way in that it cloaks you from thirdeye-WHO and the mirror - but doesn't work against magical map / farscout / kaleidoscope type of thing.
So instead of WHO / qw QW > joe, moe. There are 2 people on this plane and 5 others on another plane. WHO Moe - Pool of Stars Joe - Megalith of Doom
You'd have: QW > Gary, Joe, Larry, Meg, Mog, Moe. There are 6 people present in the realm. WHO Gary - warm shallows of the Inner Sea Joe - Megalith of Doom Larry - [obscured] (could put some fancy message) Meg - honeysuckle hedges Mog - [obscured] Moe - Pool of Stars
(Sorry if derail. If orgs are being "cut", I'd rather see a 4-org situation. Or a merger of some sorts - or even the ideas kicking around like alliance style (Edjerha's idea) or like the guild covenants.)
It hasn't been explained -why- being able to see who is online or not is beneficial. The problem does not seem to be whether or not you can see them but actual player interaction. How much more isolated would someone feel if they could see everyone online and still no one responded? I don't believe that is the crux of the problem at all. Whether I am in a manse or roaming about doing things I do not interact with newbies. I generally don't have the patience or the focus to deal with them so I leave them for others to deal with for the most part. I know a few others who are reluctant to waste time on potential troll alts.
I think this could be better resolved if we had guides be more interactive with newbies if they notice there is little interaction from an organisation happening. I know that until I see a few interactions from a newbie I won't waste my time. I need to determine if they are worth my time or not first. Some people love newbies whether troll alts or not, and that is fine. But not everyone wants to deal with that. And that I think is where a lot of the problems stem from.
Being afk in a manse doesn't do anything to hurt anyone. But more often than not someone being afk in a manse might mean more discussion where they may not have the focus to hunt or otherwise RP but can speak oocly sporadically ensuring that there is less 'loneliness' in the org/alliance.
I'd ask the other side: what does it benefit to have the people online hidden? I only have the Gem because I don't want my location so easily visible via Thirdeye. If that location portion was removed, eh... who cares if someone knows if I'm online? It's already doable by checking the website directly - why not make that information visible in-game?
Maybe we need more of a guide presence, as well as some sort of guide to help midbie+ players who have questions?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'd ask the other side: what does it benefit to have the people online hidden? I only have the Gem because I don't want my location so easily visible via Thirdeye. If that location portion was removed, eh... who cares if someone knows if I'm online? It's already doable by checking the website directly - why not make that information visible in-game?
Having the information oocly is a bit different. But I suppose since that barrier seems all but destroyed anyways it doesn't matter any more? I don't use the website or anything like that because I don't really care who is online. My friends all say hi when they come online.
I think being able to have some form of privacy when you just want to log in and check things like traps/genies/wonderitem treats or whatever without being detected. Which is not something I particularly care about but I have seem a few conversations come up around this. Game play in large communities should also allow for a certain amount of privacy. I am sure we have all had times where we just want to log on and bash/influence/quest/design/whatever floats your damn boat and talk with a few select friends and not be open to the wider community.
I really don't believe that taking away from the community is what needs to happen. I think more interaction on behalf of players and admin alike is what will battle this feeling of isolation that seems to be the problem here. Honestly. Serenwilde has quite a few people...and my alt sure as hell never feels it. I have probably spoke to about 5 people in the last year. And while I see people frequently none talk to me. In fact two of the people that were in contact with my alt retired because they felt like there just wasn't a community there any more and didn't want to play in other orgs.
Gems and all that jazz isn't hurting. It's the lack of community feel. People not interacting and using public aethers.
I used to guide. I had to drop it because of time requirements; five hours guiding was five hours of my already-limited play time not spent on my character (and a lot of it being really quiet...).
If I could run a guide shell on a second PC I probably would. I don't even need credits for it, I try to answer questions on Newbie from newbies as-is anyways. I just don't have the time to invest in not even playing.
I think the time requirements were adjusted afterward? I am not sure. Either way the problem is still the same.
I think being able to have some form of privacy when you just want to log in and check things like traps/genies/wonderitem treats or whatever without being detected. Which is not something I particularly care about but I have seem a few conversations come up around this. Game play in large communities should also allow for a certain amount of privacy. I am sure we have all had times where we just want to log on and bash/influence/quest/design/whatever floats your damn boat and talk with a few select friends and not be open to the wider community.
Yea I get that, but I've also never felt pressure to get involved when I don't feel like it. Like if I just want to log on and drain orrery, and the 'wider community' needs or wants me for something, I have no problem just doing what I want. I guess for people who have trouble saying no this could be a problem?
I'd ask the other side: what does it benefit to have the people online hidden? I only have the Gem because I don't want my location so easily visible via Thirdeye. If that location portion was removed, eh... who cares if someone knows if I'm online? It's already doable by checking the website directly - why not make that information visible in-game?
Scry and window make it there is a benefit to people not easily seeing you are online. If they don’t think about me, they won’t think to scry me.
As for guides, I stay away from newbies since a guide told me to not help those not in my org. If guides have time to bother me about who I am allowed to interact with, they have time to actually help that newbie (even though the newbie asked help 3 times without reply)
Keep in mind that guides are player-volunteers. The rules for what should be left to guides are in helpfiles (such as "do not try to make newbies namechange, only guides should do that"). Other than that, it really is better if more people help newbies than less... not sure why someone would say not to, but I know that no newbie appreciates being ignored.
I'd ask the other side: what does it benefit to have the people online hidden? I only have the Gem because I don't want my location so easily visible via Thirdeye. If that location portion was removed, eh... who cares if someone knows if I'm online? It's already doable by checking the website directly - why not make that information visible in-game?
Scry and window make it there is a benefit to people not easily seeing you are online. If they don’t think about me, they won’t think to scry me.
As for guides, I stay away from newbies since a guide told me to not help those not in my org. If guides have time to bother me about who I am allowed to interact with, they have time to actually help that newbie (even though the newbie asked help 3 times without reply)
If any guide ever tells you that again, you should issue them and complain. That's pretty unacceptable, and were I in charge, I'd have fired them on the spot.
Unless you're giving them bad information, anyone can and should help anyone when it comes to novices. The Newbie channel is first and foremost customer support, and having a visible presence that wants to help pepole can only be a good thing.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
I got two of my friends to play and both of them said there seemed to be very few people online, when actually there were like 20-30. In my previous game there would only be 10 people on but the admins would make people who recently logged out show on who as "Aura" to make it seem like there were more people online. Obviously don't do that, but at least show whoever is online to the newbies so they can see that it's not empty.
Anyone that has played the game for a while can feel the lack of population. Now is not the time for head in the sand there is no problem mentality. If the reference for Lusternia doing fine is another game only has 10 people around then Kethuru help us all.
A friend recently returned and I told them about the WELCOMEBACK pack and they said to me "you know the stuff that USED to get you talking to older players
For me, the place I really feel low pop is like guilds being difficult to progress in and not being fleshed out cause it can be like one or two people working away at stuff. There's also like org shops that are, basically, empty or even shut down. (That's not an inconvenience with the plex but it just does drive home the emptiness)
I agree with the suggestion of modifying the cloaking gem to just hide the location and not on WHO, but I also understand people who paid money to buy artefacts not liking the idea of nerfing them, so.
You threw me off for a whole two minutes
Sorry, still going to have to disagree with you on the cloaking gem for the same reasons I gave in the other thread about it.
For reference, I don't have the mirror. It is just that I bought the cloaking gem for what is apparently the opposite reason to a lot of other people.
So instead of WHO / qw
QW > joe, moe. There are 2 people on this plane and 5 others on another plane.
WHO
Moe - Pool of Stars
Joe - Megalith of Doom
You'd have:
QW > Gary, Joe, Larry, Meg, Mog, Moe. There are 6 people present in the realm.
WHO
Gary - warm shallows of the Inner Sea
Joe - Megalith of Doom
Larry - [obscured] (could put some fancy message)
Meg - honeysuckle hedges
Mog - [obscured]
Moe - Pool of Stars
(Sorry if derail. If orgs are being "cut", I'd rather see a 4-org situation. Or a merger of some sorts - or even the ideas kicking around like alliance style (Edjerha's idea) or like the guild covenants.)
I think this could be better resolved if we had guides be more interactive with newbies if they notice there is little interaction from an organisation happening. I know that until I see a few interactions from a newbie I won't waste my time. I need to determine if they are worth my time or not first. Some people love newbies whether troll alts or not, and that is fine. But not everyone wants to deal with that. And that I think is where a lot of the problems stem from.
Being afk in a manse doesn't do anything to hurt anyone. But more often than not someone being afk in a manse might mean more discussion where they may not have the focus to hunt or otherwise RP but can speak oocly sporadically ensuring that there is less 'loneliness' in the org/alliance.
I think being able to have some form of privacy when you just want to log in and check things like traps/genies/wonderitem treats or whatever without being detected. Which is not something I particularly care about but I have seem a few conversations come up around this. Game play in large communities should also allow for a certain amount of privacy. I am sure we have all had times where we just want to log on and bash/influence/quest/design/whatever floats your damn boat and talk with a few select friends and not be open to the wider community.
I really don't believe that taking away from the community is what needs to happen. I think more interaction on behalf of players and admin alike is what will battle this feeling of isolation that seems to be the problem here. Honestly. Serenwilde has quite a few people...and my alt sure as hell never feels it. I have probably spoke to about 5 people in the last year. And while I see people frequently none talk to me. In fact two of the people that were in contact with my alt retired because they felt like there just wasn't a community there any more and didn't want to play in other orgs.
Gems and all that jazz isn't hurting. It's the lack of community feel. People not interacting and using public aethers.
As for guides,
I stay away from newbies since a guide told me to not help those not in my org. If guides have time to bother me about who I am allowed to interact with, they have time to actually help that newbie (even though the newbie asked help 3 times without reply)
Unless you're giving them bad information, anyone can and should help anyone when it comes to novices. The Newbie channel is first and foremost customer support, and having a visible presence that wants to help pepole can only be a good thing.