Reducing the Number of Player Orgs

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Shango said:
    Whole reason I bothered to buy the Cloaking Gem myself...people kept being pains when I'd do quests or try to help others. The pettiness IS real, very much so. If you made it so their names showed in QW but not WHO (thus a free, balanceless scry as that shows the exact room they're in), maybe it'd be a valid move. But....generally these changes go in, they're sweeping. So one ought to take that into consideration when making such suggestions. Why bother scrying, or even buying the Farscout artifact, when this proposal lets me do WHO and I'll see where everyone is regardless. Wouldn't even need a Nose at that point in fact...
    Where is the "this proposal" you're referencing?  I don't recall seeing anyone in this thread suggesting seeing any more locations than you currently get on the normal WHO as-is right now.  Anyone else who does not qualify (cloaking gem or off-plane) would just be a name without a location.
    If you're referring to my post with EWHO earlier, that currently exists as-is.  It's an artifact power.  It wouldn't give location of people with cloaking gems either.
    There is already precedent for not showing location on WHO btw; if someone uses Stealth Veil and doesn't have a cloaking gem, their location is removed from WHO (but the name remains).
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  • Synl said:
    The whole thing is kind of a sidetrack anyways. I think having a visible population will feel good, even if it may not actually do anything. And I don't think being able to hide so you can do contentious quests (shouldn't confrontation be something you look forward to with that situation, like that's the point of an RPG?) Is a reasonable trade for making the population feel diminished.
    I think a visible population I can not interact with would frustrate me even more. To take your party example I am at the party but the room is empty, I can hear the 200 people in the other room but the door is locked and they don’t come get me (cause they can’t hear me but I don’t know that).

    Also quests are extremely easy interrupt. It isn’t that someone can come challenge me, it is that there is no way to win as quest doer. Right now I stop doing certain quests when I get farscried as I know people will come to take that one item or kill one of the NPCs. If people starts crying me cause my gem is active well questing is over for me. And if questing is over so is a large part of why I play Lusternia.
  • I'd like to suggest a temporary patch that we the players can do. While we're not official Guides, we basically do the job without the fancy title. I am starting, effective immediately, to announce presence upon Newbie and letting them know that if they have any questions, to pose them on the Newbie channel. During this announcement, remind them that if they can't seem to send someone a tell, that they may be out of range and Newbie can be heard universally. Please join me as veterans of the game and help retention where we can.
  • You can also use the fancy msgs system we have and CGT. There really isn't anything wrong with sending a msg. They could be more noticible when sent/received. But other than that nothing wrong with a good old message. 
  • That has definitely been said and I used to agree. But apparently with messages not being a system new characters are introduced to, it is safer not to rely on them. My original suggestion was to try and promote further on CGT and even have the welcome message go in depth about it. But what I'm going to start doing, and hope others join me, will just draw more attention to that and hopefully not have the example of Coraline's two friends repeat. This isn't an obligation or a shame on you if you don't, just making a call to my fellow veterans that want to help.
  • Remove location from thirdeye. Delete cloaking gems.(with refund obviously). Add everyone to a Who list even off plane.

    Right now half the games has an AOE scry or some way to tell if enemies are online. It's not hard to do but newbies dont have this or wont know the other ways. 

    Having who restricted really only hurts newbies and does nothing at all to stop players like me seeking who's online.
  • @Orael Can we separate this conversation into another thread? We've spent 2 full pages already discussing it so far. From:

    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/195255#Comment_195255

    to mine would be appreciated, feel free to delete this one if needed as well. Just want to keep the thread on task, but this seems important enough of a discussion.

  • edited May 2019
    Deichtine said:
    Remove location from thirdeye. Delete cloaking gems.(with refund obviously). Add everyone to a Who list even off plane.

    Right now half the games has an AOE scry or some way to tell if enemies are online. It's not hard to do but newbies dont have this or wont know the other ways. 

    Having who restricted really only hurts newbies and does nothing at all to stop players like me seeking who's online.

    I really - agree with what @Deichtine said .

    Anyone who actually - WOULD - hunt you that your hiding from being hunted - WILL - hunt you. Cloaking gem won't change a darn thing. It's not like you can't fly into enemies cities & planes, do a quick scent and realise who's sitting on the nexus. Figure out people's hiding habits (aside from manse) and so on. People looking for fights will end up scrying, which I believe works on every plane? Or returns a message if your online but out of reach (I'm not  scry expert). They will know if you are online ...or not and your location.

    If your tired of fighting or want to stop being ''harassed'' just stop involving yourself in PvP combat. It's really that simple.
    Most people won't track down and hunt someone just for the fun of killing someone that hasn't done anything ever before.

    If your being hunted? Maybe ask yourself why?

    Did you defile shrines ? 
    Are you raiding orgs ?
    Are you a known PvPer that people like to fight with ?
    Are you someone known for trying to start fights ?

    I'm not - at all - any good at combat, even so, I involve myself in PvP & Events from time to time. I have been hunted out of nowhere either in faethorn or on prime.

    ....and I was able to continue playing witouth a cloaking gem while being distracted and afk at times ?

    I'm not saying it's not useful for mounting surprise raids and having the edge in PvP. I 100% agree.
    But dont hide behind the cloaking gem saying. I need my gem or I'll get hunted, if you can't deal with PvP do not involve yourself in PvP.


    Cloaking gem, aside from the raiding aspect of it, really hurts newbies in general from seeing a populated game.

    ------

    Edit:

    A newbie with an empty org might be looking at WHO to find our if any experienced players are around to actually help provide guidance. You dont need to give away free locations to fix that, just make who return an OOC list with names only, no titles...QWHO comes to mind, but QWHO might not be something newbies know right away.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I can't agree with that in entirety.  I referenced the Undervault earlier.  Lusternia has had many times of people taking it upon themselves to "patrol" the Hives or the Prison and kill people there.  They would do this regardless of whether their victim had ever done anything PvP at all, justifying it by saying "I am defending this place".
    The gem is actually really helpful for avoiding this kind of thing; someone has to actually go check the areas, not just doing a cursory glance.  A lot of people get the gem for this reason (similar for Astral hunting as well).
    Note that I am not talking about Veyils' idea here (her suggestion wouldn't lead to more of this), just pointing out that your "don't PvP to avoid getting jumped" ignores a decade's worth of Lusternia's history which says otherwise.
    Here is a thought / potential concern I have, though.  What stops someone from using WHO (showing everyone) to unally/unenemy all and then rebuild automatically based on the orgs of people who are online?  Then combine that with the farscout telescope to basically make your own on-demand WHO-with-locations-of-everyone alias.  Shouldn't be too hard to configure, especially with MMFs builtin org checking stuff to leverage.
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  • edited May 2019
    It's true that years ago people were jumped left and right with little to no provocation.

    I might be off though, but it feels like you actually have to try really hard to get jumped nowdays. I'm just using my own experience, but outside of provoking...I think it happened...once ?
    Unless your high profile in Lusternia pvp, I just dont feel the average person being jumped just for being there.

    I'm not saying it dosen't happen, but I havent really seen anyone i'd flag as killing just for the sake of killing or jumping anyone they see.

    Edit:

    Enemy status could lead to being jumped, but aside from that, I have a hard time seeing a non-enemy being attacked for no reason then org loyalty these days.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited May 2019
    Cloaking gems aren't about avoiding pvp or being hunted. It's more about being able to pass under the radar if you're just trying to quest. Like if people could see me in a certain area, they can conclude that I'm trying to do a quest there and, if they have a bone to pick with me, they could come snipe an item or a quest mob or influence paranoia.

    At least with farscouting, any person that wants to mess with me has to have Cosmic, scry enchant or the artifact see where I'm at.

    Just stop pvping to some people is synonymous with just stop playing the game. Pretty unhelpful advice.

    EDIT: Main takeaway is that vindictive person that wants to ruin my quest can walk in, disrupt me, and walk out with very little chance for retaliation. You don't have to PK someone to ruin their day.


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  • edited May 2019
    Maligorn said:
    Cloaking gems aren't about avoiding pvp or being hunted. It's more about being able to pass under the radar if you're just trying to quest. Like if people could see me in a certain area, they can conclude that I'm trying to do a quest there and, if they have a bone to pick with me, they could come snipe an item or a quest mob or influence paranoia.

    At least with farscouting, any person that wants to mess with me has to have Cosmic, scry enchant or the artifact see where I'm at.

    Just stop pvping to some people is synonymous with just stop playing the game. Pretty unhelpful advice.

    EDIT: Main takeaway is that vindictive person that wants to ruin my quest can walk in, disrupt me, and walk out with very little chance for retaliation. You don't have to PK someone to ruin their day.

    This is kind of what I mean though.

    It feels like your trying to make the cake then eat it. Cloaking gem will absolutly help. But it won't stop someone determined to get in your way.
    The only people it really stops is newbies or people that dont have the resources to track others down.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Not to go full Psychology 101, but cloaking gems are a useful mental deterrent to try seeking me out. Surely you can see the difference between by bright ass cyan name on qw and it simply not being there.

    That being said, I support a nerf to cloaking gems...there was already a discussion about this where I shared my thoughts. What ever came of that?

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I referenced it earlier!  Estarra asked us for input because she had been thinking of making changes, but it seemed to end there (have not heard anything further).
    Do you have any thoughts on the script-to-farscout-everyone-online @Maligorn ?  I will point out that I have been in favour of showing more names too throughout, but that would seem to be a potential way to "exploit" the change to use a one-button alias to find out everyone's room.
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I've been going about this all wrong. If I don't want trouble with Org X, I should just not fight them. I shouldn't engage them in revolts, I shouldn't work against them in events, I shouldn't try and get domoths or bubbles. If I catch them on my elemental planes, just let them have the essence. If i leave them alone, things will just work out.

    Man. Why hasn't anyone told me this before?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    A lot of people have the mindfield artie, which will make doing that whole thing time consuming and generally not worth, especially if many of the people you're far scouting are moving around.

    Also the anti artifact soul in me says that farscout artie shouldn't exist, but I don't think I have a strong enough argument to argue for its removal. Maybe a nerf, so that Cosmic farscout is markedly superior.

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  • Yeah, let's not imply that being being jumped/ messed with when they're trying to quest is their fault. That's not helping anyone
    You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Shaddus said:
    I've been going about this all wrong. If I don't want trouble with Org X, I should just not fight them. I shouldn't engage them in revolts, I shouldn't work against them in events, I shouldn't try and get domoths or bubbles. If I catch them on my elemental planes, just let them have the essence. If i leave them alone, things will just work out.

    Man. Why hasn't anyone told me this before?
    They did.  Serenwilde used to say this to Glomdoring a lot back when we were starting out. :p
    It's not really conducive to game enjoyment no matter which way it goes, though.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    What if it only showed names of people in your org, and a masked person for people with a gem?  Give a toggle for the cloaking gem that masks your name or shows your name (without location obviously)?  This would let people in Nelras' situation "opt out" while still adding a visible entry to the WHO list.
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  • But what about those of us who bought a mask because they weren't sure what else to grab with their goop???? 

    That's fine, I still like my mask. So mysterious.
  • Ha... I totally idea'ed something like this for Cloaking Gems. I wanted the ability to turn off my exact location to deter stalkers. If someone is tracking me, I want to know! I've been pretty good lately about turning off my gem when I don't care if someone finds me.

    -------[Lorina on 4/27/2019 @ 01:02 ideas]------
    Gem of Cloaking: Hello! I would LOOOOVE to have an additional ability on Gems of Cloaking that you
    could toggle to make yourself be listed on WHO/EWHO/RWHO... all that jazz, but without revealing 
    your location. I'd love to know more people are around, which those sneaky buggers are, but I 
    totally get it.. People don't want to be tracked without triggering aethersight. I think this would 
    help the game if people could see others on WHO but not their location. I'd personally love it for 
    people to see me on, without having to feel exposed letting every Tom, Dick and Harry know my 
    location to engage RP. Much <3 Lori

  • So to bring it back on topic....

    Here is a thought

    Measure all the guilds now - do it on the basis of total vote weighting of all guild members

    Then delete the lowest points value guild.

    So the same at the start of every month recalculating until you only have three cities./communes left (possibly not even with three guilds in each). You know where all the people will go and people will happily let them in becuae if not, well their guild may get the chop next
  • You just want to get rid of Goon Squad
  • No. Goon for life!
  • Guild Hunger Games?
    You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
  • Doing it by guild census is also flawed, as there are plenty of people who just don't join a guild because they have nothing to offer.
  • Kistan said:
    So to bring it back on topic....

    Here is a thought

    Measure all the guilds now - do it on the basis of total vote weighting of all guild members

    Then delete the lowest points value guild.

    So the same at the start of every month recalculating until you only have three cities./communes left (possibly not even with three guilds in each). You know where all the people will go and people will happily let them in becuae if not, well their guild may get the chop next
    Lol, this seems like one of the most negative and destructive ideas I've seen.

    The realistic flow is:
    1. People stay in their guild until it gets chopped because they want to protect it.
    2. A guild gets chopped, the players from there split into the other guilds in that org to protect the org.
    3. Point 2 repeats until the larger pop orgs start also losing guilds because they'd need to remain spread out to protect as much as possible.
    4. At some point the admin have to deal with alt abuse because people would be creating/reactivating alts to bolster population as the fear of losing your guild/org grows.
    5. Unless there are orgs that have less than half the population of the most populated org you'll get to the point of one guild per org. (At this point the process has already dragged on for over a year)
    6. Then you start deleting orgs which takes another three months where people start shifting around orgs probably causing the then higher population orgs to lose out to currently smaller population orgs regardless of how happy people are (that's not even a choice in that context, everyone needs to take anyone they can get)
    7. You'd then logically end up with 1 guild in each of the 3 orgs. 
    But you haven't just deleted their org, you haven't wiped everything out and got people to create something new. You've deleted guild after guild that people were in, you've asked them to invest a month in guild after guild, potentially org after org. You'd have the game in a state of fear for the future of their guild and org for over a year probably losing players just to people deciding to nope out.


    Also does nothing to address the reality that there are a variety of factors that could lead to an org under performing which will reflect into its guilds.
  • Saran said:
    But you haven't just deleted their org, you haven't wiped everything out and got people to create something new. You've deleted guild after guild that people were in, you've asked them to invest a month in guild after guild, potentially org after org. You'd have the game in a state of fear for the future of their guild and org for over a year probably losing players just to people deciding to nope out.


    Also does nothing to address the reality that there are a variety of factors that could lead to an org under performing which will reflect into its guilds.

    Or it could reinvigorate them, sending guilds into overdrive to show why they deserve to survive. 

    I agree that there are a number of factors why guilds are underperforming. But I don't think anyone has suggested addressing that. We are addressing reducing numbers and poor recruitment and retention. Those guilds that have a variety of factors would have up to 8 months to sort them out!

    Would you have to watch out for alt abuse if you were doing it on voting weight?
  • In truth though, there is no good way of deleting 3 orgs. It is going to rip the heart out of the game. The impact of resettling all those people in a meaningful way and retaining the original RP of the existing orgs is minimal. Such an influx of people who do not initially believe in the ethos of a city/commune is going to create a massive us vs them problem initially.

    Will orgs pass laws banning those immigrants from running for leadership positions to protect what they have?

    Will those coming to the new orgs overwhelm it?

    Will new alliances be forged? or if we keep the 3 cities mentioned , will it be Magnagora and Serenwilde taking on Celest?

    How much admin interference will there be (and indeed how much will be tolerated by the player base)

    There literally is no good way to do this. There are only less bad. 

    I think the first choice to be made is:

    (i) is it going to be run as a vanity project (which picking the original three orgs would be)
    (ii) is it a genuine attempt to resuscitate the game(which picking the original three orgs is not) 


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