With what part of my previous post do you disagree, @Xenthos?
The first part and the last part. The middle part is basically repeating the last sentence of the post I made which you disagreed with (so clearly I don't disagree with that particular segment of your post).
I'm curious then what you imagine when you think of an algorithm for curing, even for the simpler Overhaul system.
But, yes, I do concede the point that more people would join than leave.
I am envisioning something pretty basic as it goes; check for balances, attempt to cure down whatever level is at the highest for each thing on balance. Add a couple of additional checks for the more common "complex" scenarios (things that prevent certain types of curing should be a higher priority).
Just have it do herbs / potions only, allowing individuals to code their own additional curing that they want on top (green, focus mind, focus spirit, etc) directly in their own system.
Provide the algorithm with pseudocode, giving players a framework to start from if they want to lift it and start building their own (giving them the ability to improve and enhance the foundation that is already there).
I personally don't see it as being something intended to be competitive with fully built systems (such a thing would need constant resources for enhancing / updates / etc), but a simple system that will work really well against most NPCs and provide at least some assistance against players (though admittedly not a great deal as players would quickly learn how to exploit any flaws, it would still be an improvement over nothing at all).
Server-side curing would be nice, but I doubt it'd be the best thing in the world either. That said, I love the fact that they got rid of illusions. I'd personally like to see that disappear in Lusternia before any server-side curing gets implemented. They're pretty useless right now as it is with affmessages, but the fact still stands that for TK success, you need to somehow fool the target's system, which is a pretty bad skill design no matter how you look at it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I think that server side curing is good in theory, but if it takes out methods by which people get killed, be it illusions or stupidity or whatever, new methods of killing people should be introduced. The problem with illusions (in my mind at least) wasn't that they would trick people, get people killed or even that they would mess up systems. The problem was the amount of system work it would take to avoid being completely shut down by certain illusions.
I always imagined that when they put in something like server side curing and took out illusions (or other mechanics) that they would at the same time introduce some new mechanics that had the potential to trick people and make them die, but it didn't work out that way in any of the IRE games that introduced server-side curing. They would put in the server-side curing, people would stop dying as much, 1v1 combat would continue to decline, group combat would become even more prevalent. I know some people are fine with that because they like group combat but new players won't be attracted to spammy, text-based group combat in an exceptionally expensive game.
I guess all I can say is, Estarra should tread carefully here. If someone wanted only group combat, they probably weren't going to care how fine-tuned their system was, you know? So who and what was server-side curing supposed to be for? Was it intended that it would diminish one aspect of the game in order to promote another aspect? Did it have to be a trade off instead of a straight gain? Meh.
One thing that illusions do is to give the illusion of skill requirement to the user. (See what I did there?) Sometimes an illusion works on someone, sometimes it doesn't, and it boils down to how the opponent's system is set up - so choosing or making the "right" illusions is a "skill" of some sort. It's actually possible to argue for such a perspective's validity. However, one thing that remains factual no matter how you try to paint the picture is that fact that even if there is any "skill" involved in the illusions and anti-illusions dynamic, it rests mostly, if not entirely, on the coding ability of both the user and his opponent, and not on any actual knowledge of affliction dynamics or combat sense.
Sure, the IRE combat system, and more specifically the lusternian combat metascape, can benefit from more strategical, tactical dynamics where player skill is given more emphasis, and allowed to have a larger effect on combat. This is already the case in a general sense, but more can't hurt, especially if it is implemented right. Illusions require theoretical knowledge and the strategical application of.. computing language. Not of logic and priorities (affliction A should be more dangerous than affliction B if affliction C is in the picture) but rather of actual technical know-how.
I don't know about everyone else, but if the price I have to pay for no longer needing to borrow "C+ Programming for Dummies" from the local library is a reduction in the "strategical dimensions" of Lusternian combat, then it's a price I would willingly pay.
An illusion does not kill you, and good coding gets around them. They are unreliable at best, and useless at worst, so it makes more sense to remove them as a variable and balance skills to that. Who really relies on illusions as a combat mechanic? Psionics? Paradigmatics (figment is included as illusion in this)? Bards? In general no one with illusions needs them, and when they are used they will often be ignored.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
I think that server side curing is good in theory, but if it takes out methods by which people get killed, be it illusions or stupidity or whatever, new methods of killing people should be introduced. The problem with illusions (in my mind at least) wasn't that they would trick people, get people killed or even that they would mess up systems. The problem was the amount of system work it would take to avoid being completely shut down by certain illusions.
I always imagined that when they put in something like server side curing and took out illusions (or other mechanics) that they would at the same time introduce some new mechanics that had the potential to trick people and make them die, but it didn't work out that way in any of the IRE games that introduced server-side curing. They would put in the server-side curing, people would stop dying as much, 1v1 combat would continue to decline, group combat would become even more prevalent. I know some people are fine with that because they like group combat but new players won't be attracted to spammy, text-based group combat in an exceptionally expensive game.
I guess all I can say is, Estarra should tread carefully here. If someone wanted only group combat, they probably weren't going to care how fine-tuned their system was, you know? So who and what was server-side curing supposed to be for? Was it intended that it would diminish one aspect of the game in order to promote another aspect? Did it have to be a trade off instead of a straight gain? Meh.
Illusions stopped being of much use since the implementation of affmessages. To throw an illusion that includes an affmessage, I have to pay 1p for every illusion cast, and systems can be coded to check for both the standard affliction message -and- the affmessage, then ignore if the affmessage is not there, thus rendering illusions utterly and completely useless. And even if I were to pay the 1p for the illusion, there's still the chance that the intended target will see through the illusion, thus making sure that the 1p I just spent on it was wasted.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
To add to the previous post... being that it's been some time since it, I'll double-post rather than editing.
The only way illusions can remain viable even without server-side curing is to quite simply make the illusion simulate affmessages. Something like...
weave illusion crushwindpipe Elanorwen punches you in the throat, causing your windpipe to collapse.
As you noticed, I included the affliction within the command. So how does this work? When one of the targets fails their illusion check, they see the message and an affmessage stuck to the back of it. If they see through it, the affmessage doesn't appear at all.
That said, yes... there are still ways to try and trick people's systems into breaking with illusions, but more often than not, chances are people will try and slip stuff through blackout than try and use unreliable illusions.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
but any illusion that is made worthless by an affmessage isn't really an illusion worth using in the first place, precisely for the reason you stated above. I can easily check and see through your illusion anyway, with or without affmessages. The only thing that changes is that it's more complicated and requires more code.
To add to the previous post... being that it's been some time since it, I'll double-post rather than editing.
The only way illusions can remain viable even without server-side curing is to quite simply make the illusion simulate affmessages. Something like...
weave illusion crushwindpipe Elanorwen punches you in the throat, causing your windpipe to collapse.
As you noticed, I included the affliction within the command. So how does this work? When one of the targets fails their illusion check, they see the message and an affmessage stuck to the back of it. If they see through it, the affmessage doesn't appear at all.
That said, yes... there are still ways to try and trick people's systems into breaking with illusions, but more often than not, chances are people will try and slip stuff through blackout than try and use unreliable illusions.
One thing I always liked about Lusternia is that "illusions" was a skillset and not a single ability. This had some clever stuff in it at first, like hiding room exits, making new secret rooms to hide in, things that not everybody made good use of but they were in there. Over time the skill has degenerated towards being a damage and afflictions skill and away from what I think it could have been.
People working on contributing new skills tend not to think in terms of how one skill interacts with another skill as a means of improving their own class' abilities. Making illusions situationally useful doesn't necessarily mean changing illusions; it means changing other things so that using illusions that imitate those things becomes useful.
For example, if people gave a room message when their health reached a low point or a high point, you could illusion that. If changing parry had a chance of being passively shown to a knight, you could illusion that. If skills had semi-random cooldowns and could "jam" if you try to use them too soon, you could illusion that a skill cooled down when it hadn't. If using a knight or monk skill had a random chance to dislocate your shoulder, but you saw that this was coming and had the choice not to use that skill until the danger window had passed you by, someone could illusion that you are losing control of your momentum or whatever the concept is.
Yes, I could probably illusion that I am throwing a shield up, for instance, but anyone spamming their bashing attack against me will just keep spamming their bashing attack against me. It won't trick a whole lot of people. I could illusion that I just hit vitality so people will try to focus me, too... but if I'm not a warrior, what good does that do? It's not like people will see me pointing my staff at them and being hit by my meld and think... "Oh hey, Elanorwen just hit vitality, she's a warrior!" There's also the issue of generic illusions in group fights. If I'm throwing illusions that claim that person X has recovered focus balance, what good is that when it hits all my allies, too? At most, I will have the one illusion that I know messes with a certain system somewhat and only use that if there's no enemy TKs going for vessels present so that my illusions won't end up screwing with my allies, too. Then, of course, is also the part where too many people use blackout like there's no tomorrow... and illusions are not seen under blackout anyway, so the whole thing does absolutely nothing but spend mana at that point.
Sure, there are ways to use illusions, but again... that is aimed at messing with a person's system, which to me is possibly the worst way to design any skill. After all, Lusternia is meant to be a game and the fighting is meant to be about people actually killing each-other as opposed to finding out who the better coder is. I'd be fine if the weave illusion skill got completely removed or made into a flavor/RP thing by making it use and require equilibrium.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Yes, I could probably illusion that I am throwing a shield up, for instance, but anyone spamming their bashing attack against me will just keep spamming their bashing attack against me. It won't trick a whole lot of people. I could illusion that I just hit vitality so people will try to focus me, too... but if I'm not a warrior, what good does that do? It's not like people will see me pointing my staff at them and being hit by my meld and think... "Oh hey, Elanorwen just hit vitality, she's a warrior!" There's also the issue of generic illusions in group fights. If I'm throwing illusions that claim that person X has recovered focus balance, what good is that when it hits all my allies, too? At most, I will have the one illusion that I know messes with a certain system somewhat and only use that if there's no enemy TKs going for vessels present so that my illusions won't end up screwing with my allies, too. Then, of course, is also the part where too many people use blackout like there's no tomorrow... and illusions are not seen under blackout anyway, so the whole thing does absolutely nothing but spend mana at that point.
Sure, there are ways to use illusions, but again... that is aimed at messing with a person's system, which to me is possibly the worst way to design any skill. After all, Lusternia is meant to be a game and the fighting is meant to be about people actually killing each-other as opposed to finding out who the better coder is. I'd be fine if the weave illusion skill got completely removed or made into a flavor/RP thing by making it use and require equilibrium.
You are right. Those terrible examples you just gave will, in fact, do nothing. If you don't know of any illusions that will help you, you don't have to use them. The lack of ability, on your part, to take advantage of a skill does not justify replacing the skill with something you are capable of using. Especially considering illusions have been used to great effect in the past.
Illusions aren't supposed to fall into the buckets you're attempting to put them in. Either WAY AWESOME OMG BROKE THEIR SYSTEM or LOL SUX NO POINT. There's actually a grey area of useful illusions. Both in ways that fool systems and fool player reactions.
It's funny because Achaea just introduced server side curing and the illusions users over there are upset because they believe it dumbs down combat and lowers the ceiling for people who understood the subtleties of system reading and player reactions.
Wow, Celina, can you make a comment without berating or trying to insult someone in the process?
Sorry to disappoint, but no, tricking someone's system does not show ability to PvP. It shows only ability to figure out who uses what system and having spent too long with someone with the same system, trying to figure out how to fool it. Nothing more, nothing less. I have a few tricks that work, but then again I can also figure out ways to patch said issues in either of the more popular systems. If I can figure out how to patch them, it's only a matter of time before they get fixed. And yes, part of it relies on a system utilizing affmessages as they were meant to be utilized.
But hey, the mighty Celina knows everything there is about every aspect of combat, so who am I fooling in trying to argue? The fact that someone tried to express an opinion about one aspect of combat that they feel should be gone isn't grounds for personal attacks against them. And guess what, it's just an opinion. Until some admin says that illusions are definitely staying post-overhaul, I will keep this opinion that they need to be gone and use them while I still can. Either way, either stop with your personal attacks or stop responding to my posts, as any post from here on that tries to jump at me will be ignored. Have a nice day.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
If you find an observation of fact, that you are not at the skill level as evident by your inability to take advantage of mechanics others have taken advantage of, berating and insulting, that is your problem not mine! I'm not going to hug you when I'm observing the reality of your talent level.
They aren't personal attacks just because you don't like them. Don't get bitter, get better, sunshine.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
To explain in a slightly less abrasive method.
Elanorwen = unable to use illusions successfully
Others = able to use illusions successfully
Conclusion = Elanorwen not as skilled with illusions as others
If you can't do what others can, it is indicative of the fact that the flaw is with you and not the thing you can not do. How do we know this? Because others have done what you can not.
Observation is, actually, an important part of successful PK. Noticing flaws in the systems and taking advantage of them in real time is very much indicative of ability in PVP. Whether it be with illusions or direct actions.
Now, while you have demonstrated that you aren't at the skill level of others that have taken advantage of illusions successfully, I DO BELIEVE you can do better than using a ridiculous vitality example.
I'd like to see illusions go for no other reason than the fact that they make coding a system a lot harder than it needs to be. There's a lot that goes into coding a system, but I think I could cut out so many lines of code if illusions went. Not only that, but getting rid of illusions could make systems a lot more lagproof and efficient.
As far as a server-side curing system...sure! If it helps more people get into combat, that's great! I just hope the combat system, while being more balanced and somewhat more simple, would still have enough complexity that building your own system is still preferable.
Conclusion = Elanorwen not as skilled with illusions as others
If you can't do what others can, it is indicative of the fact that the flaw is with you and not the thing you can not do. How do we know this? Because others have done what you can not.
Observation is, actually, an important part of successful PK. Noticing flaws in the systems and taking advantage of them in real time is very much indicative of ability in PVP. Whether it be with illusions or direct actions.
Now, while you have demonstrated that you aren't at the skill level of others that have taken advantage of illusions successfully, I DO BELIEVE you can do better than using a ridiculous vitality example.
Noticing flaws in systems that point to a player's lack of theoretical knowledge of affliction priorities and/or combat flow is definitely indicative of ability in PVP. For example, if your opponent does not recognize slickness as being a high priority affliction, and always cures it last, you can capitalize on that, with illusions or otherwise, and that's definitely a win you've earned, and a loss they deserve.
However, more often than not, illusions are dependant on finding out flaws in a system that points to a player's lack of computing language knowledge instead. Did you forget to add a stupidity failsafe check on eating pennyroyal? Good, I'm going to illusion stupidity and watch your system loop itself into a crash. Oh, look, you don't know how to use gmcp and your system only registers recovering herb balance on that one message from the game. I'll illusion you eating something when you already have balance, and watch your system never eat another herb until your death. Illusions raise the minimum requirement for combat with the vector of writing good if-else-endif statements. This is on top of lessons/credits, combat theory and combat experience.
Furthermore, in order to balance illusions on the envoy table, we must assume that all combatants meet this minimum requirement, and that the only illusions that has an effect are those which are crafted to take advantage of the opponent's lack of combat knowledge, and not their coding knowledge. Classes and archetypes that use illusions must thus be given enough normal, mechanical pressure (affliction rate, damage per second) to complement the effect of illusions at this level. But this means that their normal, mechanical pressure will become overbearing on targets that don't have the assumed minimum requirement of coding knowledge, because a single illusion can render a system inoperable against such targets. Yet you cannot drop the affliction rate or damage per second of these classes, because then they would flail against opponents with proper coding know-how ineffectively.
On the other hand, this means that a combatant with a less-comprehensive grasp of priorities may be able to mitigate a lot of an illusion's effect if he simply practices good coding conventions. Even though the illusionist recognizes a certain curing pattern of an opponent that points to a misunderstanding of combat dynamics, his illusion may be 'detected' and ignored, and thus have zero effect simply because the system performs a proper coding check. Look, you have slickness lower in your priority than it should be! What sloppy combat knowledge! How can a combatant who fails to realize the importance of slickness compete at the same level as me, who can actually recognize your priority problems just by looking at how you cure in the middle of combat spam? I have clear superior combat experience and knowledge... but wait, I can't illusion a regen affliction because my class has no regen afflictions, and a proper check with a pre-prepared database will automatically ignore the illusion! I'm given illusions so that I can take advantage of weak combat knowledge... but I can't take advantage because of good coding?!
Thirdly, everything which I presented above are subjective. The effectiveness of illusions is subjective, because what constitutes "good" or "bad" combat knowledge? And what consitutes "good" or "bad" coding knowledge? How is an illusion's effect supposed to be measured against these vectors? Against which amount of "knowledge" should illusions have what amount of "effect"? Perhaps putting slickness lower in priority is actually the sign of a professional combatant playing with the meta combat-scape, where he knows everyone assumes slickness is high priority, so by lowering it in his system, he can throw off strategies designed with that in mind? Should illusions have an effect in this case? Next, what constitutes a "good" illusionist? Someone who can exploit coding weaknesses? Or knowledge weaknesses? Why should we claim that illusion must target combat weaknesses instead of coding weaknesses? Perhaps it will be more reasonable to slot illusions as a purely anti-coding ability instead? etc.
For these reasons, illusions rarely feature as a vector in inter-class balance - it is too difficult to quantify and justify properly in an argument. Illusions and the impossibility of balancing them is creating an irreconcilable hole in balance discussions, and the classes that have illusions face a multitude of problems when trying to argue for or against changes to their mechanics. We're better off without them.
Is the overhaul still a thing? I am getting the feeling it has fallen into the "too hard" basket
I dunno... I kinda hope that if that was the case the coding monkeys would still be bangin' on their keyboards and we'd see results in other areas. Or have we and I just haven't noticed?
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I imagine it's still a thing. It's simply an enormous thing. I imagine they'll tell us something when there's something to tell.
It would be nice if @Estarra or someone made a post about the progress, seeing how we've seen absolutely nothing since the last shell came into the arena (which was how many months ago?).
I'm curious to know how long has this even been going on "supposedly". Though, I'm personally getting the impression that this maybe way in over their heads on a 360 move to Lusternian combat.
I am hoping they are redoing the overhaul to something more in line with requests and feedback and not just moving onto the next guild.
I have been prodded and will likely post some new thoughts on it all at some point..... for now, we are just not sure why this has stalled WHILE all bugs are being ignored. We have a lot of quests that are starting to act up. I was hoping we have something big coming up, but the only thing we have shown is we seem to be coding more curios and new promotions, but all actual development has stalled. "Overhaul" is still being used as a reason for a number of people to not do something. If we are cancelling it or changing direction could we get a formal announcement?
Comments
Just have it do herbs / potions only, allowing individuals to code their own additional curing that they want on top (green, focus mind, focus spirit, etc) directly in their own system.
Provide the algorithm with pseudocode, giving players a framework to start from if they want to lift it and start building their own (giving them the ability to improve and enhance the foundation that is already there).
I personally don't see it as being something intended to be competitive with fully built systems (such a thing would need constant resources for enhancing / updates / etc), but a simple system that will work really well against most NPCs and provide at least some assistance against players (though admittedly not a great deal as players would quickly learn how to exploit any flaws, it would still be an improvement over nothing at all).
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Sure, the IRE combat system, and more specifically the lusternian combat metascape, can benefit from more strategical, tactical dynamics where player skill is given more emphasis, and allowed to have a larger effect on combat. This is already the case in a general sense, but more can't hurt, especially if it is implemented right. Illusions require theoretical knowledge and the strategical application of.. computing language. Not of logic and priorities (affliction A should be more dangerous than affliction B if affliction C is in the picture) but rather of actual technical know-how.
I don't know about everyone else, but if the price I have to pay for no longer needing to borrow "C+ Programming for Dummies" from the local library is a reduction in the "strategical dimensions" of Lusternian combat, then it's a price I would willingly pay.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The only way illusions can remain viable even without server-side curing is to quite simply make the illusion simulate affmessages. Something like...
weave illusion crushwindpipe Elanorwen punches you in the throat, causing your windpipe to collapse.
As you noticed, I included the affliction within the command. So how does this work? When one of the targets fails their illusion check, they see the message and an affmessage stuck to the back of it. If they see through it, the affmessage doesn't appear at all.
That said, yes... there are still ways to try and trick people's systems into breaking with illusions, but more often than not, chances are people will try and slip stuff through blackout than try and use unreliable illusions.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Sure, there are ways to use illusions, but again... that is aimed at messing with a person's system, which to me is possibly the worst way to design any skill. After all, Lusternia is meant to be a game and the fighting is meant to be about people actually killing each-other as opposed to finding out who the better coder is. I'd be fine if the weave illusion skill got completely removed or made into a flavor/RP thing by making it use and require equilibrium.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
You are right. Those terrible examples you just gave will, in fact, do nothing. If you don't know of any illusions that will help you, you don't have to use them. The lack of ability, on your part, to take advantage of a skill does not justify replacing the skill with something you are capable of using. Especially considering illusions have been used to great effect in the past.
Illusions aren't supposed to fall into the buckets you're attempting to put them in. Either WAY AWESOME OMG BROKE THEIR SYSTEM or LOL SUX NO POINT. There's actually a grey area of useful illusions. Both in ways that fool systems and fool player reactions.
It's funny because Achaea just introduced server side curing and the illusions users over there are upset because they believe it dumbs down combat and lowers the ceiling for people who understood the subtleties of system reading and player reactions.
Sorry to disappoint, but no, tricking someone's system does not show ability to PvP. It shows only ability to figure out who uses what system and having spent too long with someone with the same system, trying to figure out how to fool it. Nothing more, nothing less. I have a few tricks that work, but then again I can also figure out ways to patch said issues in either of the more popular systems. If I can figure out how to patch them, it's only a matter of time before they get fixed. And yes, part of it relies on a system utilizing affmessages as they were meant to be utilized.
But hey, the mighty Celina knows everything there is about every aspect of combat, so who am I fooling in trying to argue? The fact that someone tried to express an opinion about one aspect of combat that they feel should be gone isn't grounds for personal attacks against them. And guess what, it's just an opinion. Until some admin says that illusions are definitely staying post-overhaul, I will keep this opinion that they need to be gone and use them while I still can. Either way, either stop with your personal attacks or stop responding to my posts, as any post from here on that tries to jump at me will be ignored. Have a nice day.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
If you find an observation of fact, that you are not at the skill level as evident by your inability to take advantage of mechanics others have taken advantage of, berating and insulting, that is your problem not mine! I'm not going to hug you when I'm observing the reality of your talent level.
They aren't personal attacks just because you don't like them. Don't get bitter, get better, sunshine.
To explain in a slightly less abrasive method.
Elanorwen = unable to use illusions successfully
Others = able to use illusions successfully
Conclusion = Elanorwen not as skilled with illusions as others
If you can't do what others can, it is indicative of the fact that the flaw is with you and not the thing you can not do. How do we know this? Because others have done what you can not.
Observation is, actually, an important part of successful PK. Noticing flaws in the systems and taking advantage of them in real time is very much indicative of ability in PVP. Whether it be with illusions or direct actions.
Now, while you have demonstrated that you aren't at the skill level of others that have taken advantage of illusions successfully, I DO BELIEVE you can do better than using a ridiculous vitality example.
However, more often than not, illusions are dependant on finding out flaws in a system that points to a player's lack of computing language knowledge instead. Did you forget to add a stupidity failsafe check on eating pennyroyal? Good, I'm going to illusion stupidity and watch your system loop itself into a crash. Oh, look, you don't know how to use gmcp and your system only registers recovering herb balance on that one message from the game. I'll illusion you eating something when you already have balance, and watch your system never eat another herb until your death. Illusions raise the minimum requirement for combat with the vector of writing good if-else-endif statements. This is on top of lessons/credits, combat theory and combat experience.
Furthermore, in order to balance illusions on the envoy table, we must assume that all combatants meet this minimum requirement, and that the only illusions that has an effect are those which are crafted to take advantage of the opponent's lack of combat knowledge, and not their coding knowledge. Classes and archetypes that use illusions must thus be given enough normal, mechanical pressure (affliction rate, damage per second) to complement the effect of illusions at this level. But this means that their normal, mechanical pressure will become overbearing on targets that don't have the assumed minimum requirement of coding knowledge, because a single illusion can render a system inoperable against such targets. Yet you cannot drop the affliction rate or damage per second of these classes, because then they would flail against opponents with proper coding know-how ineffectively.
On the other hand, this means that a combatant with a less-comprehensive grasp of priorities may be able to mitigate a lot of an illusion's effect if he simply practices good coding conventions. Even though the illusionist recognizes a certain curing pattern of an opponent that points to a misunderstanding of combat dynamics, his illusion may be 'detected' and ignored, and thus have zero effect simply because the system performs a proper coding check. Look, you have slickness lower in your priority than it should be! What sloppy combat knowledge! How can a combatant who fails to realize the importance of slickness compete at the same level as me, who can actually recognize your priority problems just by looking at how you cure in the middle of combat spam? I have clear superior combat experience and knowledge... but wait, I can't illusion a regen affliction because my class has no regen afflictions, and a proper check with a pre-prepared database will automatically ignore the illusion! I'm given illusions so that I can take advantage of weak combat knowledge... but I can't take advantage because of good coding?!
Thirdly, everything which I presented above are subjective. The effectiveness of illusions is subjective, because what constitutes "good" or "bad" combat knowledge? And what consitutes "good" or "bad" coding knowledge? How is an illusion's effect supposed to be measured against these vectors? Against which amount of "knowledge" should illusions have what amount of "effect"? Perhaps putting slickness lower in priority is actually the sign of a professional combatant playing with the meta combat-scape, where he knows everyone assumes slickness is high priority, so by lowering it in his system, he can throw off strategies designed with that in mind? Should illusions have an effect in this case? Next, what constitutes a "good" illusionist? Someone who can exploit coding weaknesses? Or knowledge weaknesses? Why should we claim that illusion must target combat weaknesses instead of coding weaknesses? Perhaps it will be more reasonable to slot illusions as a purely anti-coding ability instead? etc.
For these reasons, illusions rarely feature as a vector in inter-class balance - it is too difficult to quantify and justify properly in an argument. Illusions and the impossibility of balancing them is creating an irreconcilable hole in balance discussions, and the classes that have illusions face a multitude of problems when trying to argue for or against changes to their mechanics. We're better off without them.
Signature!
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
I have been prodded and will likely post some new thoughts on it all at some point..... for now, we are just not sure why this has stalled WHILE all bugs are being ignored. We have a lot of quests that are starting to act up. I was hoping we have something big coming up, but the only thing we have shown is we seem to be coding more curios and new promotions, but all actual development has stalled. "Overhaul" is still being used as a reason for a number of people to not do something. If we are cancelling it or changing direction could we get a formal announcement?