General Impressions on Overhaul

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Comments

  • Hopefully they'll be deleted.
  • Monks are a monster I have not yet approached. I have some ideas, but I believe they will be, by far, the most difficult to balance due to the nature of momentum allowing such a wide spread of affliction potential. I've considered raising the floor and lowering the ceiling in terms of the ka allowed with each momentum tier. I've considered removing wounding entirely as a req for afflictions or making it more important (a la warriors) in their afflictions. It's up in the air for now.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    The sadist in me would highly enjoy the latter solution. Make them know our pain :(

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • If desired we could offer up a rewrite on how to make them work. 

    Either using wounding, or not.
  • Saesh said:
    Currently, yes. As far as I can tell there are no limb specific afflictions for warriors (I could be wrong, I will go back and check to be sure).

    I  have not eyeballed the code but I assume it will be after like it is now. If it's not, it should be.


    Wait.. no specific limb afflictions means no point to target limbs? So we just jab jab jab to uplift wound level to increase the chance for some list of standard afflictions? No limb specific afflictions, no need to parry stance specific limbs? Or am I mistaken?
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Rivius said:


    I think completely overhauling the affliction system might be too ambitious and it'll require way more work than I think we're really ready to take on. Even now feedback from players is poor and with the experienced population dwindling, I'm not sure we can pull off such a huge project together. I know that sounds negative and not very helpful, but I'm trying to be realistic here.

    I thought I was the only one thinking this.

    It raises the question: do we even get the ability to ask to tone this overhaul down? Or are the powers that be going over Estarra's head and forcing our Lusternia's coders to work on this?

    I'd much rather see our coders working on fixing quests and making new ones and overall dazzling our incoming newbies so that they'll stay and we can start building the population up again while fixing the things in combat that need fixing. Also I want the Plots newsboard back, jeez. I dunno. Maybe I'm just an uninformed pleb.

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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    ^ so is anybody able to answer my question, or is it so dumb that it doesn't warrant a response. @Saesh, @Estarra.

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  • Eh, I don't see why we should "tone back" this overhaul, especially when this "tone back" suggestion isn't even specific as to what parts need what change.

    And as mentioned, it would be difficult to say what parts need any kind of change, much less what kind of change, from what is currently proposed, without the overhaul even being anywhere near completion.

    If you mean to scrap the overhaul completely, you'll find that there is plenty of support still for the overhaul, even if there is also support for not going ahead. There's no reason, I'd say, to go back on the overhaul without a better argument than "because I don't like it."

    The arguments FOR an overhaul are pretty extensive, perhaps the current incarnation isn't exactly to the design of what spawned the suggestion in the first place, but Estarra would not have let it go ahead if the original demand had not reached a critical mass. I don't think it's very productive in any sense of the word to start calling on the admin to give up, or cut back, or "tone down" on the overhaul at this point. If they do feel it is too much of a resource hog for too little benefit, they can make the decision when they feel it warrants it. It's a bit too early to be chopping off anything at this point, though.

  • You have the ability to ask whatever you feel necessary to ask. The types of answers those questions warrant really depends on the question itself. For example, I have no idea what "tone the overhaul down," means, as it is a very vague question. As a result, I have no answer. 

  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    I'd like if possible a breakdown of the classes and skillsets detailing the overall goal the admin have for them, example: the goal of bard skillset x should be to support instakill y. More explanation helps give an overall goal to try and build towards instead of throwing whatever and seeing what sticks.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • We have not rewritten how any of the guilds function, so I'm not certain what you mean. Bards, more or less, function as they did before. Octave, aurics, passive songs, etc. 
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Lerad said:
    Eh, I don't see why we should "tone back" this overhaul, especially when this "tone back" suggestion isn't even specific as to what parts need what change.

    And as mentioned, it would be difficult to say what parts need any kind of change, much less what kind of change, from what is currently proposed, without the overhaul even being anywhere near completion.

    If you mean to scrap the overhaul completely, you'll find that there is plenty of support still for the overhaul, even if there is also support for not going ahead. There's no reason, I'd say, to go back on the overhaul without a better argument than "because I don't like it."

    The arguments FOR an overhaul are pretty extensive, perhaps the current incarnation isn't exactly to the design of what spawned the suggestion in the first place, but Estarra would not have let it go ahead if the original demand had not reached a critical mass. I don't think it's very productive in any sense of the word to start calling on the admin to give up, or cut back, or "tone down" on the overhaul at this point. If they do feel it is too much of a resource hog for too little benefit, they can make the decision when they feel it warrants it. It's a bit too early to be chopping off anything at this point, though.
    I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse, or you didn't bother to read Rivius's post (which is what I'm referencing also).

    I don't think the affliction system needs an overhaul into this extremely dry affliction level thing. I would much rather see h/m/e buff stacking addressed, the way warriors have to buy several artifacts to be even remotely relevant in combat, and certain abilities tweaked but not a huge, honking overhaul.

    However, I do understand that I'm very uninformed about this, and therefore would like to do some research into what brought about the overhaul in the first place. My first character isn't Maligorn, but I had a long hiatus from Lusternia in which I missed the reasoning and the time and design behind the original decision. Can anyone point me towards relevant overhaul Announce posts? Particularly the first few.

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  • I certainly read Rivius' posts. I didn't have much problem with it. Perhaps I used the wrong words when I mentioned the "don't like it" part, but the idea is that even if there are players who prefer to cut back the ambitious reach of the overhaul, there are similarly players who would love to see it achieve what it originally set out to do, and perhaps even more, and that both sides have perfectly valid reasons. Therefore, it makes no sense to go back on the project and start chopping off major portions of it at this stage, when the framework is only barely just in place, and we can hardly even see what it will actually look like when complete.

    I can't remember if the original discussions that eventually led to the overhaul are in this forums or the old ones. The decision was made during one of the major meets, when players met with Estarra personally and through face-to-face talks, convinced him of the need to. If I remember correctly, he promised to think about it, and not long after the meet, announced the decision to go ahead with it.

  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    edited August 2014
    The seeds of the overhaul were planted at Ironcon, where, not coincidentally, @Shuyin was. Thus, all the blame lies upon Shuyins shoulders.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Neos said:
    The seeds of the overhaul were planted at Ironcon, where, no coincidentally, @Shuyin was. Thus, all the blame lies upon Shuyins shoulders.
    For once, Neos is not blaming me for things.  I am impressed!
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  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Xenthos said:
    Neos said:
    The seeds of the overhaul were planted at Ironcon, where, no coincidentally, @Shuyin was. Thus, all the blame lies upon Shuyins shoulders.
    For once, Neos is not blaming me for things.  I am impressed!
    Nothing is broken yet.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • Though it has been noted previously by others, I will reiterate that the overhaul is not an opportunity to air all your mechanical grievances. While the primary goal of the overhaul isn't a re-balance of problematic mechanics, it certainly provides an opportunity to address some. The more you work with me in the direction I need you to work, the more I can address in the long run. The more time spent providing laundry lists of problems, the less we can actually accomplish. I have reached out to the players to provide more insight and perspective to the project than I alone will be able to come up with. I want you to be involved. That being said, while you can direct the flow of this river, it's ultimately flowing downhill, and at the bottom of the hill is the completed overhaul. 


    If you have not spent some time in the shells, I encourage you to do so and provide specific feedback as to successes and failures of these shells. The sooner bards are in a reasonable place, the sooner we can move on. 
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited August 2014

    Saesh said:
    We have not rewritten how any of the guilds function, so I'm not certain what you mean. Bards, more or less, function as they did before. Octave, aurics, passive songs, etc. 
    For some guilds/archetypes/skillsets, it's never been entirely clear what the focus is intended to be, or what the point of certain abilities are. We think we have a handle on it, but then are suddenly blindsided by a report rejection reason or solution 4 that makes no sense in the context of what we thought the point of the skillset is. Sometimes the intended strategy is clear... but non-viable, gimmicky, or excessively frustrating for one reason or another, leaving combatants mystified. You'll have an instakill, but no support for it, or the afflictions look like they would support xyz strategy but actually don't by some quirk ( or by a weird, non-stacking choice of afflictions).

    I've voiced my opinion (at length) on the current affliction-system-based overhaul and how I believe it could be re-reworked (with relatively minimal changes) into a serviceable state, but ultimatly: I would be much more interested in overhauling how archetypes work, rather than how afflictions work. The most boring skills in the game are those in which afflictions, and not unique mechanics, are the star.  That's your runes/hexes/dramaturgy/curses/evileye skills (wait, are some of those even ours? /shrug, they're all the same), that offer little if anything in the way of interesting or unique abilities, generally used only to spam a few OP abilities and combos and nothing else, ho-hum. Overhaulling in such a way that those types of skillsets and that focus on slightly-different vehicles for delivering the same handful of afflictions with slight variations sounds great.

    With the shells specifically, my main concern is that for all the shells I tested, there were one or two skills they wanted to spam to win in short order. For the glamours shells, that skill tended to be majorseventh, for the aeon shells - AEON, with some delusions mixed in. By spamming the music skill, not only are their song effects guaranteed to always hit, but their health totals go down, increasing the speed at which passive damage (For those who have them) will kill the target. For the aeon guilds, it spams aeon, in a way that is stronger than aeon's current iteration because it's harder to cure everything quickly.
  • I'm actually on vacation in the middle of the Caribbean but checking in (on a poor connection no less). I'd like to just reiterate that the main focus of the overhaul is redoing all afflictions and defenses. My hope was always to migrate to the new affliction and defense system onto a database system to enable much greater flexibility and control while streamlining the number of afflictions and defenses into a cohesive system. To that end, we weren't necessarily going to redesign every skill in-game which perhaps was causing confusion; rather, we were hoping to maintain the skills as-is where possible and migrating them to the new system. But while that sounds simple it requires a complete rewriting of combat architecture, including all damage and healing routines. Thus, I'm really hoping you'll help Saesh work on this end goal.

    Again, redesign of entire skills and skillsets is not the goal; rather, it is the focus on how defenses and afflictions operate. However, some skillsets (like warrior weapons and monk combat) may need some rework simply because of how they operate. We've actually finished one complete skillset for warrior weapons (bonecrusher) but we haven't released it yet pending getting the bard shells in workable order.
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  • Maligorn said:

    I'd much rather see our coders working on fixing quests and making new ones and overall dazzling our incoming newbies so that they'll stay and we can start building the population up again while fixing the things in combat that need fixing. Also I want the Plots newsboard back, jeez. I dunno. Maybe I'm just an uninformed pleb.
    Quests are still being thought up and tweaked and built during the Overhaul.
  • Well bards have been changed in a pretty dramatic way. They have been moved away from mana/ego damage kills. Which I could see making sense possibly because mana and ego damage attacks don't respect dmp and can contribute to mana based insta kills while doing health damage. Instead they have been moved to damage with a new way of auric afflictions to help achieve that goal. Which is cool.

    Affliction classes, in general, are going to be troublesome since they can stack on each other much like the way multiple warriors could with wounds. Since you can only cure the aff on top you are locking in the ones underneath. Before you could usually cure all afflictions in matter of moments. For example 4 of our 5 plague affs can be simultaneously cured.

    The Cacophony are going to be particularly difficult in this matter as they have been centered around giving lots of minor afflictions. If cure balances are more meaningful then minor affs can become major problems much faster. Or it could go in the other direction end up being irrelevant in 1 v 1 and only helpful if in groups. It was kind of like hunger attrition, either it did nothing or it completely wrecked you.

    I would like to throw out my support behind finding creative solutions or adjusting the directions of guilds rather than just watering down the problem children. Taking the time to find not only a solution but the best solution will benefit everyone down the line.

    In this case it might just be toning down (or removing it and replace it with something else) the cure denial that was put in place when plague affs were easier to cure. Or maybe have it only use a fraction of the normal cure balance when it triggers. I actually thought that aeon would be stripped from the game for similar reasons....

    Thanks!

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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited August 2014
    Druids will need a fairly major rework, because sap will be a non-possibility with the new affliction system (or outside of sap, druids will need to be far weaker than they already are). There are so many major implications of the new affliction system as it stands that many guilds will need to get defacto redesigns or become OP/UP.

    EDIT: Melds in general will need a long, hard look. Outside of the stun and forced movement effects, most demesnes (Especially the older ones) don't do much at all on their own, merely assisting other strategies. As @Llandros said, you can usually instantly cure away an entire demesne if you aren't locked up, which won't be a thing anymore. It will be really difficult to balance them in their current incarnation with this type of aff system.
  • Isune said:
    Maligorn said:

    I'd much rather see our coders working on fixing quests and making new ones and overall dazzling our incoming newbies so that they'll stay and we can start building the population up again while fixing the things in combat that need fixing. Also I want the Plots newsboard back, jeez. I dunno. Maybe I'm just an uninformed pleb.
    Quests are still being thought up and tweaked and built during the Overhaul.
    What about quest bugs? I assume they are being fixed but I have a few Waystation ones sitting at submitted since like ages. 
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited August 2014
    Rialorm said:
    Isune said:
    Maligorn said:

    I'd much rather see our coders working on fixing quests and making new ones and overall dazzling our incoming newbies so that they'll stay and we can start building the population up again while fixing the things in combat that need fixing. Also I want the Plots newsboard back, jeez. I dunno. Maybe I'm just an uninformed pleb.
    Quests are still being thought up and tweaked and built during the Overhaul.
    What about quest bugs? I assume they are being fixed but I have a few Waystation ones sitting at submitted since like ages. 
    Quest bugs have always been notoriously rough.

    I've got some bugs that have been hanging out for years (my oldest bug-bug has a date of 9/15/2012 on it).  Some bugs are a whole lot easier to address, and others kind of sit on the backburner for a while- but such tends to be the way with bugs anyways.

    Edit: Quest bugs are harder because quests tend to be written by individuals, some who do not leave enough notes / comments about what they were doing and why.  Thus, when the individual leaves / steps down as a volunteer, others do not know how the thing is supposed to work and this makes them very reluctant to try to pick it up because it might break even further.
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  • Enyalida said:
    Druids will need a fairly major rework, because sap will be a non-possibility with the new affliction system (or outside of sap, druids will need to be far weaker than they already are). There are so many major implications of the new affliction system as it stands that many guilds will need to get defacto redesigns or become OP/UP.

    EDIT: Melds in general will need a long, hard look. Outside of the stun and forced movement effects, most demesnes (Especially the older ones) don't do much at all on their own, merely assisting other strategies. As @Llandros said, you can usually instantly cure away an entire demesne if you aren't locked up, which won't be a thing anymore. It will be really difficult to balance them in their current incarnation with this type of aff system.
    Let's tone down the dramatic rhetoric about redesigns and focus on what is in front of us. You can't possibly know what the state of druids post overhaul will be, largely because I don't know what they will be because the skills have not be rewritten yet. It's unproductive at best and counterproductive at worst. 

    I am looking at the overall implications of cure denial style skills and how they interact with the new cure balance.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    One small request from Knights, and I suppose Monks if they do have to still exist post overhaul, that would probably result in firstborn children being named after you.

    Can we please have natural miss rates removed, gone, dying a brutal horrible death, non existent and no longer a thing, please?

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • I actually agree with most of the things Thoros has listed, and several things are actually being addressed in the overhaul. Stat and buff stacking is being capped, for example, and I believe healing scroll is being removed (don't quote me on that, that's a ways away). I won't go in to a super detailed discussion regarding melds, monks, and the variety of curatives until we actually reach that point but I will state your concerns are valid and if possible within the framework of the overhaul, they can be addressed. 

    I also agree with several of the extremes regarding monks, melds, so on and so forth and it is my intention to real them in within the framework of the overhaul rather than a complete redesign. I would disagree that there is not a middle ground. For example, removing lodestone (stun) and rubble, and suddenly a geomancer demense is much less problematic. Not saying that is the avenue I am pursuing, simply an example of how things aren't quite as black and white as they are often painted. 

    I will reiterate that we are not redesigning archetypes. Druids will retain sap unless it simply can not function within the boundaries of the overhaul and remain a balanced mechanic.
  • When you're talking about lowering the cap on health/ego, how will this effect bashing? I say this as a recent Demi who is already struggling to boost my stats enough to access 'end game' areas that I want to explore, such as Muud. I'd be happy to accept that as a Mage I'll never be able to sit on Astral solo linking like Karlach lol, but I'd like to think that all quests/areas should be open to me. If we all have less health, will npc damage be reduced accordingly?
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