When you're talking about lowering the cap on health/ego, how will this effect bashing? I say this as a recent Demi who is already struggling to boost my stats enough to access 'end game' areas that I want to explore, such as Muud. I'd be happy to accept that as a Mage I'll never be able to sit on Astral solo linking like Karlach lol, but I'd like to think that all quests/areas should be open to me. If we all have less health, will npc damage be reduced accordingly?
From what I remember, though some of this may be outdated, classes are getting fixed healthpools to the class, and no longer by race (or more importantly con *and int for surge* stats)
HME buffs are being capped, average joe probably wouldn't notice a difference in boosts, the guy running around with an L3 life rune, full set of bottles, and the throne buff is going to be limited.
I mean it makes sense, a lot of the time I push the HP boundaries purely for S&G's but there is no reason to ever be an 20k HP illithoid.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I actually agree with most of the things Thoros has listed, and several things are actually being addressed in the overhaul. Stat and buff stacking is being capped, for example, and I believe healing scroll is being removed (don't quote me on that, that's a ways away). I won't go in to a super detailed discussion regarding melds, monks, and the variety of curatives until we actually reach that point but I will state your concerns are valid and if possible within the framework of the overhaul, they can be addressed.
I also agree with several of the extremes regarding monks, melds, so on and so forth and it is my intention to real them in within the framework of the overhaul rather than a complete redesign. I would disagree that there is not a middle ground. For example, removing lodestone (stun) and rubble, and suddenly a geomancer demense is much less problematic. Not saying that is the avenue I am pursuing, simply an example of how things aren't quite as black and white as they are often painted.
I will reiterate that we are not redesigning archetypes. Druids will retain sap unless it simply can not function within the boundaries of the overhaul and remain a balanced mechanic.
I'm sorry to say but without some archtype redesigning, the overhaul is going to have very limited effect on combat in Lusternia. Sap is a flawed concept, and although I don't know what the new incarnation of sap is going to be for druids, if it is still going to be an aeon effect which requires you to be free of any ailments which prevent a scrub-like cure to take effect, the problem has not yet even been phased in the slightest.
All archtypes need to have some sort of goal and multiple routes they can take in order to achieve such goal. Affliction classes have almost zero momentum, most of them are 'burst' offense classes (which is a flawed concept in itself as well, and incredibly overpowered). The only real affliction class which has any taste of affliction momentum are illuminati, they can begin afflicting and can continue to do so and slowly begin to outpace curing if not hindered.
From the top of my head (and again, these are just my opinions, these are the archtypes and their situations which currently are posing a problem with combat in Lusternia:
Shadowdancers: Twists. Strip insomnia and mana drain on every hit, followed by various effects up to and including aeon and, on the final twist, a 45% mana drain and enormous stun. The twists never dissipate, they never decay, theres no way to remove any twists aside from taking the final twist which, with a 45% mana drain, large stun, passive mana drain from banshee and the mana drain on twisting itself, is not survivable at all.
Cantors: Princessfarewell. Instant aeon which bypasses quicksilver defense, stun and blackout for only 3 power. The game's top three offending afflictions, all in one punch, for only three power, requires no setup except for target being undeaf.
Druids: Sap.
Nihilists/Ur'guard: Ectoplasm.
Celestine/Paladin: Inquisition lineup
Monks: Momentum.
Healers: Aurawarp and bedevil being uncurable in presence of healer.
The overabundance of aeon in the game. I would personally limit aeon to being Tarot-exclusive.
Hexes: Burst offense is too overpowered, the fact that six afflictions can be done, hidden, in almost under 3 seconds (not including passives) is far too extreme. A nihilist can effectively give 9-12 afflictions in almost 3 seconds with hexes. Doublewhammy six afflictions, the demon will hit with two afflictions as well, if you use beast spit poison or hypnogaze, and nihilist tail sting. Also include that contagion tic when it happens. Too much. But without the doublewhammies, and no demon scourge, then it's not enough affliction power. Too weak. This is where there is no middle ground.
The list could go on for more but this is what I've managed to think up so far on the fly. Anyways, if archtype redesign is not part of the overhaul agenda, I truly feel that the overhaul is going to have very little effect on the true combat problems facing Lusternia today.
While it may or may not be true that archetypes need redesigning depending on any given person's perspective, it was never the intent of the overhaul, as proposed by the players during the Las Vegas meet, to redesign specific archetypes. The reality is we are not rebuilding everything everyone raises a concern about, overhaul or not.
I, for one, have at least some faith that the overhaul will simplify things and our envoys can iron out the remaining balance issues. Instead of the traditional "theorycrafting" that players like to do when proposing changes, we might be able to actually lay it all out in a table-like format to compare apples to apples.
I surprisingly agree with Iasmos. I thought the envoys were doing a good job in balancing out a lot of the issues, and a greater awareness was put on each report once they became available for everyone to see.
The one thing that has always been holding back the envoys is the range of what their reports are allowed to cover. At one point, it was recommended that envoys only envoy their own skills, as those that envoyed another skill would be held under more scrutiny and held to a higher standard (where I counteract that every report should be held to the same high standard regardless). When ripple was initially envoyed, people wondered if that was within the scope of envoys.
I think a good step would be allowing envoys more freedom of action while giving EVERYONE the ability to see any reports list, including drafts and submitted from other guilds.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Suggesting changes, like a whole overhaul, at the Las Vegas meet could've been a terrible idea. You are face to face with the game producer, who is going to go against the grain and say no to your face? Not only that, it was a decision that was left to a very small group of people that probably didn't represent the whole game. Normally, when things like this were proposed, like when we did the special report, the group head (Shuyin) was voted on by a referendum from everyone.
We were never given the chance here.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
When the idea was proposed here on the forums over a year ago, @Estarra did ask us for feedback/permission. We had our opportunity to say yay or nay, though the weight any one vote had could be debated.
The overhaul was, indeed, brought to the players to vote on. I believe there was a forums survey that gave the players options on where they thought admin time would be best spent and from the several options, they chose the overhaul.
I, for one, have at least some faith that the overhaul will simplify things and our envoys can iron out the remaining balance issues. Instead of the traditional "theorycrafting" that players like to do when proposing changes, we might be able to actually lay it all out in a table-like format to compare apples to apples.
I am not sure if you are joking....... Envoys have a long record of failing in this regard splendidly. I am not naming or pointing fingers, but many issues that were even agreed on were left not to be touched due to lack of "scratching their back" in return.
Brief issues to look at:
- Healing: The entire skillset is likely to mess with the overhaul honestly, step back and look at what it is intended for. Presently, with very few exceptions, it allows you to keep cured up against solo targets readily. This also means if your primary can kill someone, then you are an almost unslayable target with the ability to kill people.
- Stuns+Blackout: These afflictions feel more like they were intended to mess with curing as a workaround. Consider removing stun from all skills, if someone absolutely would need stun use a different thing. Stopping 100% of curing is excessive, especially when you have 3s almost spammable stuns. Blackout is similar, too easy to get screwed on, especially when passives and motes can cause huge blackouts.
- Aeon: Cut back heavily as stated by others, I would say remove it, but I doubt we can rework enough people to not use it.
I will leave the rest up to those who are interested in the results. I for one am let down we are making no effort to adjust for group combat when every mechanic seems geared toward having huge fights that will end very quickly.
The powers that be have set the terms of this discussion, largely influenced by the desires of the players. That does not mean your concerns are not valid, ignored, or that they will not be addressed in time. Simply that, at this time, that is not the discussion we are having. Players can either choose to participate in the dialogue (which I, and the rest of the admin, sincerely hope you do as I find the envoy and discussion process immensely valuable and ultimately successful on the whole) or you can continue to attempt to dictate the terms of the discussion and find yourself left out. I say this once again because it's important to me to be as successful in my role as possible, and that success can be influenced by your involvement.
Our immediate goal is to streamline PK to make it more accessible and less overwhelming at entry level and reel in what has become an overwhelming (200+) volume of afflictions, curatives, and unique class mechancis. We are currently not looking at the meta or class redesigns. When building a house, you start with the foundation, not the amenities. I am genuinely interested in looking at the concerns being brought up by many of you, and as I have noted, as someone versed in PK share many many of your opinions on some of your points. However, to get where many of you want to go, we must first cross this bridge.
In conclusion, my desire is for you all to get involved and have a hand in Lusternia's growth! You will be playing it, after all. That being said, this is not Burger King and you cannot always have it your way.
-Melds need a review as well. Even with all the nerfs they have received, they are still powerful, nearly impenetrable fortresses if done correctly. Movement abilities for melds need a re-looking, whirlpool/current, rubble, windwalls, etc. Melds should be powerful in nature but the fact that they can hinder a group walking through it so well makes them favor the melding side far too much. Again, no middle ground. There is starting to be a resemblance here.
While I agree with all the points @Thoros raised, I'd like to personally focus on this one. I find melds in Lusternia are more a detriment and irksome mechanic that rather than nurture combat seem to choke it out. The power behind the idea of having area dominance frankly deters people from initiating in combat, simply because of melds. It seems to always comes down to: Are they melded? Do we have a melder? Find the break point. It feels like combat is considered with Melds as the priority and then everything else secondary. I'd personally love if melds were altogether removed, but I have little faith in that happening since it has been a unique concept to lusternia since day 1, but I would love if the 'necessity' of melds was removed and it could be brought more in line with the other archetype capabilities.
As a side note, I feel @Thoros is bringing up a lot of valid points and I would be happy if his input could be brought into the combat overhaul project.
The only "impenetrable fortress" meld is the geomeld. Every other meld I feel fairly comfortable charging into. Except maybe Hartstone melds if the druid knows what they're doing.
The only "impenetrable fortress" meld is the geomeld. Every other meld I feel fairly comfortable charging into. Except maybe Hartstone melds if the druid knows what they're doing.
It isnt about which meld is more effective than the other, but rather melds in general. They provide such an irksome take on combat that rather than promote combat exchanges, actually are a detriment to it. Who here can attest to not actually turning away from a confrontation simply because the enemy had effects raised up in the area? I believe we are all guilty of that. I wish to see the take of melding removed from group combat, so that perhaps the other archetypes can be given more importance.
Meld wars are perhaps the most annoying of the lot. Have you ever seen 2 mages fighting for meld control? It is as dull as it can be.
All melds in the right hands are awesome, that goes without saying. The melder plays a big role in determining what meld is dangerous and what meld is laughable. I mean, charge into an aquameld, druid meld, or any runemeld and your group can be split up and picked off faster than you can say 'oh shit' (I've done this numerous times before). You put entirely too much power on geomelds compared to others (or not enough on others?).
I suppose I'll take your word for it. I've never been in Chade's pyromeld, Nydekion's aquameld, or Vadi's blacktalon meld before, though I have heard that all of them were unbelievable.
Comments
And where can I post logs? Caerlyr's logsty died, so I'm not sure where to put them!
HME buffs are being capped, average joe probably wouldn't notice a difference in boosts, the guy running around with an L3 life rune, full set of bottles, and the throne buff is going to be limited.
I mean it makes sense, a lot of the time I push the HP boundaries purely for S&G's but there is no reason to ever be an 20k HP illithoid.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I'm sorry to say but without some archtype redesigning, the overhaul is going to have very limited effect on combat in Lusternia. Sap is a flawed concept, and although I don't know what the new incarnation of sap is going to be for druids, if it is still going to be an aeon effect which requires you to be free of any ailments which prevent a scrub-like cure to take effect, the problem has not yet even been phased in the slightest.
All archtypes need to have some sort of goal and multiple routes they can take in order to achieve such goal. Affliction classes have almost zero momentum, most of them are 'burst' offense classes (which is a flawed concept in itself as well, and incredibly overpowered). The only real affliction class which has any taste of affliction momentum are illuminati, they can begin afflicting and can continue to do so and slowly begin to outpace curing if not hindered.
From the top of my head (and again, these are just my opinions, these are the archtypes and their situations which currently are posing a problem with combat in Lusternia:
Shadowdancers: Twists. Strip insomnia and mana drain on every hit, followed by various effects up to and including aeon and, on the final twist, a 45% mana drain and enormous stun. The twists never dissipate, they never decay, theres no way to remove any twists aside from taking the final twist which, with a 45% mana drain, large stun, passive mana drain from banshee and the mana drain on twisting itself, is not survivable at all.
Cantors: Princessfarewell. Instant aeon which bypasses quicksilver defense, stun and blackout for only 3 power. The game's top three offending afflictions, all in one punch, for only three power, requires no setup except for target being undeaf.
Druids: Sap.
Nihilists/Ur'guard: Ectoplasm.
Celestine/Paladin: Inquisition lineup
Monks: Momentum.
Healers: Aurawarp and bedevil being uncurable in presence of healer.
The overabundance of aeon in the game. I would personally limit aeon to being Tarot-exclusive.
Hexes: Burst offense is too overpowered, the fact that six afflictions can be done, hidden, in almost under 3 seconds (not including passives) is far too extreme. A nihilist can effectively give 9-12 afflictions in almost 3 seconds with hexes. Doublewhammy six afflictions, the demon will hit with two afflictions as well, if you use beast spit poison or hypnogaze, and nihilist tail sting. Also include that contagion tic when it happens. Too much. But without the doublewhammies, and no demon scourge, then it's not enough affliction power. Too weak. This is where there is no middle ground.
The list could go on for more but this is what I've managed to think up so far on the fly. Anyways, if archtype redesign is not part of the overhaul agenda, I truly feel that the overhaul is going to have very little effect on the true combat problems facing Lusternia today.
She needs Dramaturgy and Tarot transed, please. Glamours are not as optimal for the Loralaria kit.
All the bard shells need to be cured of drunkenness after fights with Dengaboom. When I first entered the arena she was super drunk.
Also, I can't activate Glamours (because I forgot temporarily to try and switch to a better tert).
EDIT: As in it's a little buggy, not that there's a time limit or something. SKILLCHOICE ACTIVATE GLAMOURS comes up with "that's not a valid choice!".
While it may or may not be true that archetypes need redesigning depending on any given person's perspective, it was never the intent of the overhaul, as proposed by the players during the Las Vegas meet, to redesign specific archetypes. The reality is we are not rebuilding everything everyone raises a concern about, overhaul or not.
I feel like a broken record.
The one thing that has always been holding back the envoys is the range of what their reports are allowed to cover. At one point, it was recommended that envoys only envoy their own skills, as those that envoyed another skill would be held under more scrutiny and held to a higher standard (where I counteract that every report should be held to the same high standard regardless). When ripple was initially envoyed, people wondered if that was within the scope of envoys.
I think a good step would be allowing envoys more freedom of action while giving EVERYONE the ability to see any reports list, including drafts and submitted from other guilds.
Suggesting changes, like a whole overhaul, at the Las Vegas meet could've been a terrible idea. You are face to face with the game producer, who is going to go against the grain and say no to your face? Not only that, it was a decision that was left to a very small group of people that probably didn't represent the whole game. Normally, when things like this were proposed, like when we did the special report, the group head (Shuyin) was voted on by a referendum from everyone.
We were never given the chance here.
The powers that be have set the terms of this discussion, largely influenced by the desires of the players. That does not mean your concerns are not valid, ignored, or that they will not be addressed in time. Simply that, at this time, that is not the discussion we are having. Players can either choose to participate in the dialogue (which I, and the rest of the admin, sincerely hope you do as I find the envoy and discussion process immensely valuable and ultimately successful on the whole) or you can continue to attempt to dictate the terms of the discussion and find yourself left out. I say this once again because it's important to me to be as successful in my role as possible, and that success can be influenced by your involvement.
Our immediate goal is to streamline PK to make it more accessible and less overwhelming at entry level and reel in what has become an overwhelming (200+) volume of afflictions, curatives, and unique class mechancis. We are currently not looking at the meta or class redesigns. When building a house, you start with the foundation, not the amenities. I am genuinely interested in looking at the concerns being brought up by many of you, and as I have noted, as someone versed in PK share many many of your opinions on some of your points. However, to get where many of you want to go, we must first cross this bridge.
In conclusion, my desire is for you all to get involved and have a hand in Lusternia's growth! You will be playing it, after all. That being said, this is not Burger King and you cannot always have it your way.
While I agree with all the points @Thoros raised, I'd like to personally focus on this one. I find melds in Lusternia are more a detriment and irksome mechanic that rather than nurture combat seem to choke it out. The power behind the idea of having area dominance frankly deters people from initiating in combat, simply because of melds. It seems to always comes down to: Are they melded? Do we have a melder? Find the break point. It feels like combat is considered with Melds as the priority and then everything else secondary. I'd personally love if melds were altogether removed, but I have little faith in that happening since it has been a unique concept to lusternia since day 1, but I would love if the 'necessity' of melds was removed and it could be brought more in line with the other archetype capabilities.
As a side note, I feel @Thoros is bringing up a lot of valid points and I would be happy if his input could be brought into the combat overhaul project.
Meld wars are perhaps the most annoying of the lot. Have you ever seen 2 mages fighting for meld control? It is as dull as it can be.