First and foremost, this is not absolute nor implemented yet.
To Malarious's point, Nihilists have access to a lot of stackable bleeding, much of which is passive (spawn, Nif symbol, demon with Nif pact, I believe torture also does bleeding but I need to double check). Omen was originally replaced by powerspikes and I specifically swapped it out for manabarbs to open up this avenue of combat. That's not to say it is a seemless transition. We have opened up the envoys specifically for things like this. Additionally, if you have specific feedback or proposals you can communicate them here or to me directly, I am all ears. I.E. I think ectoplasm should be replaced with X because of Y example. We are also open to reworking crucify/sacrifice to function without ectoplasm. The envoy system is your oyster.
I'm aware Nihilists/Magnagora are undergoing a fair amount of change in this overhaul, but Nihilists also have a lot of unique affs that contributed to the bloat (ectoplasm, crucify, deathmark, plague affs, etc. etc. etc.). Ectoplasm has long been a problematic mechanic to balance around, available to only 2 classes, and proposed to removal entirely by both Illuminati and Nihilist envoys. It's a significantly complicated affliction to deal with that ultimately warranted a critical eye.
I am going to assume questions regarding punishing orgs that you happen to be competing against so that they can "whine," or inteded "neutering" of anything are rhetorical. I will also assume that you don't really mean such things and that you wish to continue being part of the constructive dialogue. Thanks!
but I agree that paralysis seems like too major of a downgrade.
I'm actually ok with the nerf hammer setting up camp in the south and going on a slash and burn campaign. We would get to update some very old mechanics from the ground up. All of the forum tears caused by Nihi 2.0 will be delicious.
First and foremost, this is not absolute nor implemented yet.
To Malarious's point, Nihilists have access to a lot of stackable bleeding, much of which is passive (spawn, Nif symbol, demon with Nif pact, I believe torture also does bleeding but I need to double check). Omen was originally replaced by powerspikes and I specifically swapped it out for manabarbs to open up this avenue of combat. That's not to say it is a seemless transition. We have opened up the envoys specifically for things like this. Additionally, if you have specific feedback or proposals you can communicate them here or to me directly, I am all ears. I.E. I think ectoplasm should be replaced with X because of Y example. We are also open to reworking crucify/sacrifice to function without ectoplasm. The envoy system is your oyster.
I'm aware Nihilists/Magnagora are undergoing a fair amount of change in this overhaul, but Nihilists also have a lot of unique affs that contributed to the bloat (ectoplasm, crucify, deathmark, plague affs, etc. etc. etc.). Ectoplasm has long been a problematic mechanic to balance around, available to only 2 classes, and proposed to removal entirely by both Illuminati and Nihilist envoys. It's a significantly complicated affliction to deal with that ultimately warranted a critical eye.
I am going to assume questions regarding punishing orgs that you happen to be competing against so that they can "whine," or inteded "neutering" of anything are rhetorical. I will also assume that you don't really mean such things and that you wish to continue being part of the constructive dialogue. Thanks!
It has been a while so this is as much of an implied question as it is a comment.
1. Don't forget Ur'guard (and warriors that share a skill with illuminati?)
2. Do Nihlists have an instant kill based on a lack of mana, because if not, I don't think bleeding/health based kills are going to be reliable?
First and foremost, this is not absolute nor implemented yet.
To Malarious's point, Nihilists have access to a lot of stackable bleeding, much of which is passive (spawn, Nif symbol, demon with Nif pact, I believe torture also does bleeding but I need to double check). Omen was originally replaced by powerspikes and I specifically swapped it out for manabarbs to open up this avenue of combat. That's not to say it is a seemless transition. We have opened up the envoys specifically for things like this. Additionally, if you have specific feedback or proposals you can communicate them here or to me directly, I am all ears. I.E. I think ectoplasm should be replaced with X because of Y example. We are also open to reworking crucify/sacrifice to function without ectoplasm. The envoy system is your oyster.
I'm aware Nihilists/Magnagora are undergoing a fair amount of change in this overhaul, but Nihilists also have a lot of unique affs that contributed to the bloat (ectoplasm, crucify, deathmark, plague affs, etc. etc. etc.). Ectoplasm has long been a problematic mechanic to balance around, available to only 2 classes, and proposed to removal entirely by both Illuminati and Nihilist envoys. It's a significantly complicated affliction to deal with that ultimately warranted a critical eye.
I am going to assume questions regarding punishing orgs that you happen to be competing against so that they can "whine," or inteded "neutering" of anything are rhetorical. I will also assume that you don't really mean such things and that you wish to continue being part of the constructive dialogue. Thanks!
It has been a while so this is as much of an implied question as it is a comment.
1. Don't forget Ur'guard (and paladins?)
2. Do Nihlists have an instant kill based on a lack of mana, because if not, I don't think bleeding/health based kills are going to be reliable?
Supposedly balance locks by Ur'guard are impossible at the moment, and yes, Nihi's have a manakill (wrack)
Not sure how Paladins are involved in ecto discussions
Hey, so, I raised this issue earlier and it seems like it was overlooked. If Envoys are being solicited again, can we please ensure that all guilds have an active Envoy? Especially in guilds/orgs where we don't have a Patron present to actually appoint someone.
Yeah with the ecto nerf there's no balance play to the autodamage out of Inqui users which is just a game over in group combat as is
Not really sure what the correlation here is, but I assume that group Crucify would still be viable (and is more of an actual "game over" than inquisition is).
Hey, so, I raised this issue earlier and it seems like it was overlooked. If Envoys are being solicited again, can we please ensure that all guilds have an active Envoy? Especially in guilds/orgs where we don't have a Patron present to actually appoint someone.
I've worried about this as well. I think it will be something we just keep in mind and be aware of. Even if we assign every guild an envoy if they aren't really familiar with things they could still miss important facets or even end up making things worse. This is just going to have to be a group effort if we want to end up with a well balanced and super fun game.
punishing orgs that you happen to be competing against so that they can "whine," or inteded "neutering" of anything are rhetorical. I will also assume that you don't really mean such things and that you wish to continue being part of the constructive dialogue. Thanks!
Naw, that was a joke. I am not in Magnagora, nor Celest, but historically any changes to one results in them whining until they are on par. Celest added holy light, and a lot of buffs to other skills using it, but now necromancy is being burned, so clearly we need to nerf sacraments to put the two on par.
Torture causes bleeding yes, though the power cost means you likely won't be spamming it (envoys can fix if need be, but the damage hurts).
I am ok with affs that up eq/bal recovery going away in general, they tend to screw with any meaningful conflict when you have to stop or wait on an aff that will destroy you even worse if you ignore it (attacking with ectoplasm vs curing it).
I am more excited when envoys start opening up balance changes again, we still had issues when envoys was suspended, and those changes still can't be made. Why would we allow changes on skills that are tweaking though? It will likely get saved more toward the end but we have a plethora of things that will need tweaking in due time.
Also, yes, Ur'Guard used ectoplasm too, and it let them sacrifice.
Regarding envoys, it's important to have an active patron who knows the guilds and who fights and who doesn't, etc. Generally, anonymous people telling me to appoint whoever to envoy because their patron isn't active doesn't go far with me. However, I may make an exception for this overhaul but I'd first encourage to choose an active patron. (Yeah, I know ... but the RP ... but really it's more important to have an active patron b/c that's the only way the admin (including myself) really know what's going on in a guild.)
Regarding envoys, it's important to have an active patron who knows the guilds and who fights and who doesn't, etc. Generally, anonymous people telling me to appoint whoever to envoy because their patron isn't active doesn't go far with me. However, I may make an exception for this overhaul but I'd first encourage to choose an active patron. (Yeah, I know ... but the RP ... but really it's more important to have an active patron b/c that's the only way the admin (including myself) really know what's going on in a guild.)
Thanks for addressing this, and I understand your concerns with us possibly trying to bypass having a patron to oversee things. My comment is more on behalf of Celest, because we don't have any active gods (or visibly active gods?) to patron the guilds and unfortunately other organizations may fall into this bucket from time to time. So if we don't have the opportunity to appoint an active patron for our guild, is there some temporary alternative to Envoy selection - maybe a guild referendum, or nominations by other Envoys?
Edit: Or please point me in the direction of the poor Celest-affiliated admin that I can harass for patronage.
Regarding envoys, it's important to have an active patron who knows the guilds and who fights and who doesn't, etc. Generally, anonymous people telling me to appoint whoever to envoy because their patron isn't active doesn't go far with me. However, I may make an exception for this overhaul but I'd first encourage to choose an active patron. (Yeah, I know ... but the RP ... but really it's more important to have an active patron b/c that's the only way the admin (including myself) really know what's going on in a guild.)
Thanks for addressing this, and I understand your concerns with us possibly trying to bypass having a patron to oversee things. My comment is more on behalf of Celest, because we don't have any active gods (or visibly active gods?) to patron the guilds and unfortunately other organizations may fall into this bucket from time to time. So if we don't have the opportunity to appoint an active patron for our guild, is there some temporary alternative to Envoy selection - maybe a guild referendum, or nominations by other Envoys?
Edit: Or please point me in the direction of the poor Celest-affiliated admin that I can harass for patronage.
I will come back and be envoy for the entire city. I have a 100% success rate.
I'd like to bring up Report 518 again. Octave currently prevents all "spiritual" curses aka "any affliction cured with horehound". That includes timewarp in the current system, which was deemed to be not so big a deal by the Furies. But if it works the same way in the new system, it will now start blocking afflictions like Aeon and Paralysis from getting cured. That would be very very bad for obvious reasons.
I sacrifice 1v1, but only against acrobats. The removal of ectoplasm will make me physically incapable of killing any decent acrobat, since my only route to killing them has always been contagion cloud, deathmark lvl 15, lucky ectoplasm knockdown, and then power sweeping knockdown 2x into a crux/sac off the balance loss stacking because of people springing up.
Then again, that's just me being an axelord, I guess. People keep telling me 'oh killing an acrobat is possible' but I just can't see how.
Regarding envoys, it's important to have an active patron who knows the guilds and who fights and who doesn't, etc. Generally, anonymous people telling me to appoint whoever to envoy because their patron isn't active doesn't go far with me. However, I may make an exception for this overhaul but I'd first encourage to choose an active patron. (Yeah, I know ... but the RP ... but really it's more important to have an active patron b/c that's the only way the admin (including myself) really know what's going on in a guild.)
Sorry to say but our 'Patron' appointed a newbie both in game and combat....
Also, @Kelly I think you're confused on what crucify does? Inquisition is a dead stop which is instantly over with. You can still get out of that crucify, and many have. Without Inquisition having a cure, or a way besides running away to stop the set up, it's still probably one of the most ridiculous skills in the game to date. I'm in no way saying Crucify isn't strong, but I think your self using bias is getting the best of you.
Envoys are not always the best combatant. To be successful, we require a civil and constructive discourse among the envoys. If a combatant can't do that, they will not be considered. I had the conversation yesterday about a possible envoy, in fact.
Willing to ask questions, learn about things and seeking out feedback from their peers regarding the state of their guild skills is the most important thing. Just last night there were some envoys apologizing for being new but going on to say some interesting things. There does need to be a critical mass of those familiar with game mechanics for it to be successful but there is wiggle room there and admin oversight.
Helpful:
Hey someone mentioned to me that they think skill x is weak. What do you guys think? Said person brought up points 1, 2, and 3 which seem reasonable to me.
Unhelpful/Entertaining:
NEWBS CAN'T PARTICIPATE IN TOP TIER COMBAT! I DEMAND YOU MAKE PENTACLE/CIRCLE BE AN INSTA KILL WHEN CAST ON SOMEONE OVER TWICE THEIR CIRCLE!!!1!1!! BECAUSE REASONS!!11!!1!
Regarding envoys, it's important to have an active patron who knows the guilds and who fights and who doesn't, etc. Generally, anonymous people telling me to appoint whoever to envoy because their patron isn't active doesn't go far with me. However, I may make an exception for this overhaul but I'd first encourage to choose an active patron. (Yeah, I know ... but the RP ... but really it's more important to have an active patron b/c that's the only way the admin (including myself) really know what's going on in a guild.)
Sorry to say but our 'Patron' appointed a newbie both in game and combat....
Also, @Kelly I think you're confused on what crucify does? Inquisition is a dead stop which is instantly over with. You can still get out of that crucify, and many have. Without Inquisition having a cure, or a way besides running away to stop the set up, it's still probably one of the most ridiculous skills in the game to date. I'm in no way saying Crucify isn't strong, but I think your self using bias is getting the best of you.
Sorry, I meant Sacrifice! With Inquisition, you really only have a small window of time to be worried about, and you can focus on hindering that one person. Effectively you only need to run away/shield/hinder for 5 seconds. Also if you do get hit with the inqui, really if your friends just gusted you away you'd probably live.
With Crucify/Sacrifice, Necro-users can coordinate limb breaking (and with dendroxin/calcise, right?) in which case it seems like an impossible situation. I don't know if I've ever gotten out of it in a group combat situation, outside of truehealing. Also having an instant means of preventing all escape has great general combat utility. I would trade inquisition for crucify/sacrifice hands down! And that's without ectoplasm.. so I guess I don't see its removal as a big deal for group combat, but granted that is coming from an outside perspective.
But I think we have the opportunity to look at all skills within the context of the overhaul and adjust accordingly. I think (and hope) that also applies to the ridiculous ones we always complain about.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't gust someone that's impaled, and doesn't inquisition count as an impale?
Also, I think the defense stripping is the worst part of inquisition. Good on me, I tanked it, now I have no defs . Eliminating def-stripping would be a big step up.
I've always thought ectoplasm was a problem (especially with mugwumpness/quickening, where you can beat writhing), it's just ectoplasm, a power move, being replaced with paralysis is disheartening and depressing. Ectoplasm was a nice skill, not just for what it did, but because most people had to cure it again before they could start attacking again, and it was one of the few defensive measure a Nihilist had to buy time from getting owned by a monk/warrior. I'm sure there are a lot better solutions than what has been proposed, but I'm not sure if they can be figured out till the overhaul is completely done with.
And I would trade Inqui for Crucifix/Sacrifice any day of the week and twice on Sunday. People don't realize how annoying attempting to sacrifice someone is when you have to rely on the random tics of epilepsy and scabies. There is a reason why there are very few sacrifices, and there are reasons why midbie combatants can still Inqui someone, but no midbies can ever Sacrifice someone. I don't even know the last person to Sacrifice someone outside of me. Also, it takes 10 full power to crucify/sacrifice someone, most times, you are stuck on the cross waiting for someone to regenerate power, because they had to use power moves to get you to stick on the cross (like deathmark, ectoplasm, contagion, whammies, knockdown). It'll be extremely hard to have someone crucified on the cross for longer than 8 seconds to be able to pull off a sacrifice. Just because Mugwump and doublewhammy made sacrificing look easy, it is a lot harder once you exist outside of being a Mugwump.
Editted: I deleted a paragraph because I forgot what manabarbs does.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Ok, so I put a lot of thought into it and have formed an opinion on pox -> paralysis
Not awesome for Cacophony.
I envoyed pox to only have a chance of giving a secondary message when it ticked. This was to help with the building up of plague affs. Paralysis, while hindering, has an immediate effect would be insta cured. It would also mean that 4 of 5 have secondary messages and hinder combat.
Having it be health leech would be more along the lines of what it currently does. Giving health leech pox's chance to not give a secondary message would be great. If health leech does a lot of damage that might not be reasonable though.
It would have been nice to not have a plague aff in the spirit cure list though. This will keep the current situation where 4 of the 5 can be simultaneously cured so it's not the end of the world.
The racial outliers will be addressed as well once we get around to races after the affliction portion is done. I think we will see a much smaller disparity betweent he speed floors and ceilings afterwards.
I apologize if it's disheartening, I will reiterate that we are extremely open to solutions. I'm also looking at adjusting the power costs and equilibrium recovery of ectoplasm now that it does paralysis, both of which will most likely be reduced and I do know that repeated parlysis is a very effective hinder as demonstrated by hexens recently/semi recently. The overhaul aims to reduce the afflition bloat, not rework classes and class mechanics. It's just inevitable that some classes will require some reworking due to their abundance of unique afflictions. Nihilists fall in to this category. My hope is that instead of dictating the rework, I can provide options and the envoys/players can ultimately decide the direction. I have given Nihilists some strong spirit afflictions to stack and a better ability to mana drain, along with the option to increase the bleeding drain if necessary.
We can replace Cacophony paralysis with Healthleech, I'm fine with that. The damage is fairly small, to my knowledge.
P.S. This isn't a inquisition vs sacrifice thread.
The racial outliers will be addressed as well once we get around to races after the affliction portion is done. I think we will see a much smaller disparity betweent he speed floors and ceilings afterwards.
I apologize if it's disheartening, I will reiterate that we are extremely open to solutions. I'm also looking at adjusting the power costs and equilibrium recovery of ectoplasm now that it does paralysis, both of which will most likely be reduced and I do know that repeated parlysis is a very effective hinder as demonstrated by hexens recently/semi recently. The overhaul aims to reduce the afflition bloat, not rework classes and class mechanics. It's just inevitable that some classes will require some reworking due to their abundance of unique afflictions. Nihilists fall in to this category. My hope is that instead of dictating the rework, I can provide options and the envoys/players can ultimately decide the direction. I have given Nihilists some strong spirit afflictions to stack and a better ability to mana drain, along with the option to increase the bleeding drain if necessary.
We can replace Cacophony paralysis with Healthleech, I'm fine with that. The damage is fairly small, to my knowledge.
P.S. This isn't a inquisition vs sacrifice thread.
What was the improved mana draining ability? manabarbs causes health loss when mana falls, sparkle and scroll will cure both at once, we didn't improve actual drains, assuming it sticks.
Keep in mind we also have teas that prevent some affs (like paralysis), and unless the cure is made considerably longerr, even 2s ectoplasm would result in no real gains.
@Silvanus: Think of it this way, you guys got a decent skill in deathmark, but sacraments got holylight which buffed like 5 skills (improvements to several existing skills)......... can you say necro buffs with the destruction of your skillsets main offensive abilities?
I was just expressing my opinion. The 'plague affliction' pool is used in several places and should probably be consistent. I haven't considered deviating from that before though. That will require further pondering!
That aff group is in contagion, the spike via point spike from Magnagora's Iron Machine construct, the ur'guard death weapon and the death ascendant pet ability. I don't remember the real name I just call it ur'pet.
I seriously cannot imagine that any of them would want to give up paralysis. Some creativity might be in order.
They have not been announced, the cleanse cures are difficult. I'm really hoping to get rid of most of them. Sludge, mud, deathmark, whatever else I'm forgetting. I don't like what they add to combat and feel like. Sap is staying, and there are some issues with slitthroat/slickness, else I would like probably purge the whole cleanse system. it may be that we move sap to one of the cures and figure out a solution to prevent the cure the way entangle/prone/etc prevents standing. It's a tough one, I'm still working through it.
Malarious, I'll be entirely honest. I don't really understand a lot of your commentary. "Better ability to mana drain," meaning manabarbs/other damage can force a change in sip priority. I don't know what the "no reals gains," comment is about.
Envoys are not always the best combatant. To be successful, we require a civil and constructive discourse among the envoys. If a combatant can't do that, they will not be considered. I had the conversation yesterday about a possible envoy, in fact.
I don't think it's okay to appoint someone who has zero idea about either the game or the skills in the game at the same time though.
I can't speak to specific examples though generally I agree with you, but sometimes it's our only option. It's that or a vacancy. For what it's worth, I have a working knowledge of pretty much every skillset with a small handful of exceptions to help fill the voids when necessary. Not ideal, but it's something!
Comments
First and foremost, this is not absolute nor implemented yet.
To Malarious's point, Nihilists have access to a lot of stackable bleeding, much of which is passive (spawn, Nif symbol, demon with Nif pact, I believe torture also does bleeding but I need to double check). Omen was originally replaced by powerspikes and I specifically swapped it out for manabarbs to open up this avenue of combat. That's not to say it is a seemless transition. We have opened up the envoys specifically for things like this. Additionally, if you have specific feedback or proposals you can communicate them here or to me directly, I am all ears. I.E. I think ectoplasm should be replaced with X because of Y example. We are also open to reworking crucify/sacrifice to function without ectoplasm. The envoy system is your oyster.
I'm aware Nihilists/Magnagora are undergoing a fair amount of change in this overhaul, but Nihilists also have a lot of unique affs that contributed to the bloat (ectoplasm, crucify, deathmark, plague affs, etc. etc. etc.). Ectoplasm has long been a problematic mechanic to balance around, available to only 2 classes, and proposed to removal entirely by both Illuminati and Nihilist envoys. It's a significantly complicated affliction to deal with that ultimately warranted a critical eye.
I am going to assume questions regarding punishing orgs that you happen to be competing against so that they can "whine," or inteded "neutering" of anything are rhetorical. I will also assume that you don't really mean such things and that you wish to continue being part of the constructive dialogue. Thanks!
Not really sure what the correlation here is, but I assume that group Crucify would still be viable (and is more of an actual "game over" than inquisition is).
The replacement will be forthcoming. There will be sweet buttery tears regardless though.
Signature!
With Crucify/Sacrifice, Necro-users can coordinate limb breaking (and with dendroxin/calcise, right?) in which case it seems like an impossible situation. I don't know if I've ever gotten out of it in a group combat situation, outside of truehealing. Also having an instant means of preventing all escape has great general combat utility. I would trade inquisition for crucify/sacrifice hands down! And that's without ectoplasm.. so I guess I don't see its removal as a big deal for group combat, but granted that is coming from an outside perspective.
But I think we have the opportunity to look at all skills within the context of the overhaul and adjust accordingly. I think (and hope) that also applies to the ridiculous ones we always complain about.
And I would trade Inqui for Crucifix/Sacrifice any day of the week and twice on Sunday. People don't realize how annoying attempting to sacrifice someone is when you have to rely on the random tics of epilepsy and scabies. There is a reason why there are very few sacrifices, and there are reasons why midbie combatants can still Inqui someone, but no midbies can ever Sacrifice someone. I don't even know the last person to Sacrifice someone outside of me. Also, it takes 10 full power to crucify/sacrifice someone, most times, you are stuck on the cross waiting for someone to regenerate power, because they had to use power moves to get you to stick on the cross (like deathmark, ectoplasm, contagion, whammies, knockdown). It'll be extremely hard to have someone crucified on the cross for longer than 8 seconds to be able to pull off a sacrifice. Just because Mugwump and doublewhammy made sacrificing look easy, it is a lot harder once you exist outside of being a Mugwump.
Editted: I deleted a paragraph because I forgot what manabarbs does.
The racial outliers will be addressed as well once we get around to races after the affliction portion is done. I think we will see a much smaller disparity betweent he speed floors and ceilings afterwards.
I apologize if it's disheartening, I will reiterate that we are extremely open to solutions. I'm also looking at adjusting the power costs and equilibrium recovery of ectoplasm now that it does paralysis, both of which will most likely be reduced and I do know that repeated parlysis is a very effective hinder as demonstrated by hexens recently/semi recently. The overhaul aims to reduce the afflition bloat, not rework classes and class mechanics. It's just inevitable that some classes will require some reworking due to their abundance of unique afflictions. Nihilists fall in to this category. My hope is that instead of dictating the rework, I can provide options and the envoys/players can ultimately decide the direction. I have given Nihilists some strong spirit afflictions to stack and a better ability to mana drain, along with the option to increase the bleeding drain if necessary.
We can replace Cacophony paralysis with Healthleech, I'm fine with that. The damage is fairly small, to my knowledge.
P.S. This isn't a inquisition vs sacrifice thread.
Re: paralysis for ecto - at the very least I want a reduction in power and equilibrium for nose, personally. Debating on anything further still.
They have not been announced, the cleanse cures are difficult. I'm really hoping to get rid of most of them. Sludge, mud, deathmark, whatever else I'm forgetting. I don't like what they add to combat and feel like. Sap is staying, and there are some issues with slitthroat/slickness, else I would like probably purge the whole cleanse system. it may be that we move sap to one of the cures and figure out a solution to prevent the cure the way entangle/prone/etc prevents standing. It's a tough one, I'm still working through it.
Malarious, I'll be entirely honest. I don't really understand a lot of your commentary. "Better ability to mana drain," meaning manabarbs/other damage can force a change in sip priority. I don't know what the "no reals gains," comment is about.