I don't think it'll be that bad for Nihilists, they are still a pretty
good class, just not amazing in group combat (I still get beckon!).
Wrack is still solid, sleeplocks are still viable for Tarotists. Damage option was never really available, except for extreme cases (omen/sensitivity on demon, crucifix, eyeblast, destro).
I think it was previously mentioned that writhe stacking was going to go the wayside, so perhaps this can mean that skills like Torture, Spawn, demon pacts/symbols can get upgraded now that Necro has received a downgrade.
Its silly to get worked up about what will happen when envoys have been able to handle situations like this.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
@Silvanus: You are crazy man, Nihilists throughout the ages have used damage, most of them had to learn to use torture to kill people! In my day we even used astro rays and cosmicfires and newbie kicks!
@Saesh: You said "I have given Nihilists some strong spirit afflictions to stack and a better ability to mana drain, along with the option to increase the bleeding drain if necessary."
I was replying to that. How did you give a better ability to drain mana? Manabarbs would have to stick for 10s+ to force a new priority onto health. So I was asking for clarification on what you meant by better ability to mana drain.
@Malarious: You answered your own question, more or less, in that manabarbs can force a change in curing priority. 10 seconds is a fabricated number, the impact of manabarbs is largely reactionary in that its value comes from how the target uses their mana while they have it. It can force a change in 3 or 4 seconds, or it can open the door for further health pressure.
@Munsia: That's how they were designed many years ago.
@Malarious: I think the idea isn't so much that you're supposed to use manabarbs from Omen to pressure health and force the victim to skip mana sips, but rather that you're supposed summon a spawn, invest something like "Sensitivity, Paralysis, Recklessness, Anorexia", hit with omen before the demon tic and torture after. Target takes double direct damage from torture due to Sensitivity and accumulates bleeding. They are then forced to either clot immediately (costing both mana and double health due to manabarbs+sensitivity) or to wait for manabarbs to cure and take double damage on the bleeding tic because they didn't clot in time. While they're doing that, you either hit with either start draining more mana (do this if you see several lines of manabarbs smoke come out their ears; this indicates they've blown a bunch of health and mana on clotting) to work toward a direct wrack kill OR use Crucify or Omen again (if you see no smoke to indicate clotting; this indicates they still have all the bleeding) to stack up bleeding and work toward a kill that way.
Envoys are not always the best combatant. To be successful, we require a civil and constructive discourse among the envoys. If a combatant can't do that, they will not be considered. I had the conversation yesterday about a possible envoy, in fact.
I don't think it's okay to appoint someone who has zero idea about either the game or the skills in the game at the same time though.
Well, there's a difference between zero idea and not the best combatant. I've always said the most important quality is to be a good communicator, which includes communicating with the guildmembers to find out what's truly important and then communicating that through the envoy system. We've certainly had some unproductive envoys who were excellent combatants but ended up alienating other combatants or not being able to successfully articulate their arguments. Likewise, some middle of the road combatants have been great envoys because they were able to communicate with their guild and craft persuasive points for their positions.
Envoys are not always the best combatant. To be successful, we require a civil and constructive discourse among the envoys. If a combatant can't do that, they will not be considered. I had the conversation yesterday about a possible envoy, in fact.
I don't think it's okay to appoint someone who has zero idea about either the game or the skills in the game at the same time though.
Well, there's a difference between zero idea and not the best combatant. I've always said the most important quality is to be a good communicator, which includes communicating with the guildmembers to find out what's truly important and then communicating that through the envoy system. We've certainly had some unproductive envoys who were excellent combatants but ended up alienating other combatants or not being able to successfully articulate their arguments. Likewise, some middle of the road combatants have been great envoys because they were able to communicate with their guild and craft persuasive points for their positions.
There has been all of 1 envoy report since they started back up. To which the universal reaction has been :-??
Communication is a two way street. The poor kid is in a guild full of very talented and highly opinionated individuals that use strategic skills. It is an unenviable position.
When I first became an envoy I just said whatever Narsrim told me to, usually in nicer words though. But then I would research and look into what was being discussed so that I could form some kind of opinion on my own (which were then usually ridiculed for being something Narsrim told me to say - which by the way was not something complained about when that was actually the case). As I started becoming active in PvP I could see things working in real time and started getting a better grasp on things.
Being an envoy is not a glamorous job. Writing reports can take up a lot of time. After the overhaul is done things should be simpler but I've spent hours making all kinds of charts and tables sorting out who can do what and which cure balances would be used only to wad them up when it turned out my awesome idea is actually stupid. Once you do get a good idea then you have to comb through the thousand or so reports to make sure your idea hasn't been shot down already. Then you have to bolster your argument with all the facts you can find and any analogous decisions. Then you get to read through all the comments of related reports so you can point out hypocritical arguments from asshats who are just trying to be dicks about the whole thing.
It can be absolutely maddening because at the end of the day you can't make everyone happy so all you hear is criticism. If it weren't for the fact that I think it is a really important job and that game balance is crucial to the health of a game I really care about I would have walked away a long time ago.
Being nice to your envoy is always a good idea (even if you don't mean it). It will help getting important dialogues moving.
The Geomancer envoy has been involved in conversations over envoys as recently as 2 days ago. I can't speak to his combat abilities, but he's certainly amicable and involved in the dialogue.
If it was not communicated by us, no affliction should change in functionality. I believe sensitivity is (without asking Ieptix to check the code) 30%.
EDIT: I myself have been working through some IRL stuff, and took no longer having a direct leadership role as an excuse to take a bunch of time off. I'll be starting to come back around to work on envoy (and other stuff) in the next few days.
@Malarious: I think the idea isn't so much that you're supposed to use manabarbs from Omen to pressure health and force the victim to skip mana sips, but rather that you're supposed summon a spawn, invest something like "Sensitivity, Paralysis, Recklessness, Anorexia", hit with omen before the demon tic and torture after. Target takes double direct damage from torture due to Sensitivity and accumulates bleeding. They are then forced to either clot immediately (costing both mana and double health due to manabarbs+sensitivity) or to wait for manabarbs to cure and take double damage on the bleeding tic because they didn't clot in time. While they're doing that, you either hit with either start draining more mana (do this if you see several lines of manabarbs smoke come out their ears; this indicates they've blown a bunch of health and mana on clotting) to work toward a direct wrack kill OR use Crucify or Omen again (if you see no smoke to indicate clotting; this indicates they still have all the bleeding) to stack up bleeding and work toward a kill that way.
@Iytha: The omen effect is being replaced, so you wouldn't be able to cause double damage on torture, only the 33% from sensitivity as omen is being replaced. You also just described the use of torture, not manabarbs, as manabarbs has to be cast on its own and cannot be cast at the same time as torture as a result. I am very familiar with how Nihilist offense works, it was my starting point.
@Munsia: Nihilist mana kill does not require broken legs, it requires paralysis or a form of entangle. It costs 3p less than Absolve and has no cost on fail because it is harder to pull off, paralysis is an alternative in an effort to help hexists pull it. Sacrifice requires broken limbs though.
2s : Cast leech/amissio (we assume manabarbs casting was super short to about equate to the cure time on it, also makes it more likely it works). This does not trigger priority change in most cases.
6s : Cast leech/amission again. Assuming you are balance chasing, they will be able to cure instantly after this hit, potion still keeps stats high.
10s: Cast one more time. Now they have some pressure on one stat, but sparkleberry has also recovered.
@Malarious Right. So +33% instead of double damage. I wasn't sure why I had it in my mind then that Sensitivity = double damage, but I'm going to blame it on it being late at night when I wrote that. With the plan above, the idea is to stick manabarbs (using whatever method you like, but aeon seems like an obvious winner here) seconds before your demon hits, then do torture on the first balance after the demon hits. If you can stick manabarbs long enough to cast Leech even once, you can stick manabarbs to cast torture once.
2s : Cast leech/amissio (we assume manabarbs casting was super short to about equate to the cure time on it, also makes it more likely it works). This does not trigger priority change in most cases.
6s : Cast leech/amission again. Assuming you are balance chasing, they will be able to cure instantly after this hit, potion still keeps stats high.
10s: Cast one more time. Now they have some pressure on one stat, but sparkleberry has also recovered.
If your prios are to cure manabarbs first instead of all the more important spiritual cures (aeon, paralysis, powerspikes, slickness, pacified), you're gonna have a bad time.
Q: Is Music Octave going to block all usage of soothing steam (or whatever the spirit cure is) or just the aurics as per normal?
You have to figure that stats/vitals are going to ultimately be changing a fair degree, but I can't see that ever being balanced such that you can reasonably pressure more than one vital at a time. Outside of aeon/sap conditions, are there any classes that can really pressure vitals at high-mid/top tier?
The only archetype that seems true for (off the top of my head) are mages, with vessel spamming TK and DoubleHaegl+chemweapon combos.
If things are kept the way they are then you wouldn't be able to cure powerspikes before any of the other auric afflictions. That might need to be changed though depending on how things play out.
Regarding pressuring vitals, anything that can stack a lot of bleeding will do the trick (I'm looking at you Nekotai).
While a lot of bards go for gimmicky song powers or focus on hindering in combat, our main kill method is to attack all 3 vitals at once. Exploding heads FTW!
So I have a question that I have been trying to hold off on, but it's nagging me now that races were tangentally mentioned again. If stats and race are disconnected does that mean taedae lose the slow balance since they will no longer have the str and con bonus?
Daganev: "The racial outliers will be addressed as well once we get around to
races after the affliction portion is done. I think we will see a much
smaller disparity betweent he speed floors and ceilings afterwards." - Saesh on the last page.
Nihilists can increase torture damage with level 15 Deathmark as well.
Its also not like thats the only thing happening in Malarious' scenario, plus, I don't plan on leeching someone if they are not aeoned. If I'm getting a Wrack, it's because they haven't sipped in 10-18 seconds, and it doesn't matter if they have manabarbs or not. I probably wouldn't waste the power or time on an omen (nor do I really ever anyways unless in groups).
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Daganev: "The racial outliers will be addressed as well once we get around to
races after the affliction portion is done. I think we will see a much
smaller disparity betweent he speed floors and ceilings afterwards." - Saesh on the last page.
Yes, that is what caused me to ask the question. Tae'dae have a slow balance because they have high stats. But race and stats are being disconnected. Hence my question.
... Regarding pressuring vitals, anything that can stack a lot of bleeding will do the trick (I'm looking at you Nekotai).
...
This is a little off topic, but just so it's out there, it's been shown in quite a few logs that Ninja and Shofangi both outdo Nekotai in the bleeding department nowadays. Granted, the Neko probably still outdo Nihilists in that respect, thank gods.
On the topic of Nihilists and Manabarbs + bleed...
Well, bleed has always been awesome as a strategy because it forces so many decisions on the victim, and in certain archetypes, the user as well. Those who make the right decisions can neutralize it (up to a certain limit) and its snowballing nature means that if you can exploit an opponent's bad decisions, you can almost certainly guarantee yourself a kill even if they successfully run away from you. It's one of the few strategies that have the potential to completely overwhelm even Healing wiccans. At the same time, if you don't hit the critical mass of bleed, either because of a smart opponent or sub-par usage, you're going to get nowhere. And that, however, is also it's greatest achilles' heel as a workable strategy. There is a delicate balance to be had between giving an archetype too much easy bleed and too little. The former just makes them incredibly overpowered (see: pre-vessels-nerf Nekotai/TK) and the latter means it's overlooked as an option because it's simply ineffective.
I've never been a Nihilist, and I've never seen a Nihilist try to bleed me out before, so I'm not sure what their bleeding output is like. Pretty sure it's not quite enough, though. Whether they will have the ability to stick manabarbs post-overhaul might be pivotal in determining whether it will be a viable strategy then... but I don't think it's possible to successfully bleed out people at the moment as a Nihilist. This is off the top of my head, and I haven't fought a Nihilist in quite a while, so I'm just taking a potshot in the dark here with this comment.
Manabarbs will always boost the effectiveness of bleed because of clot mechanics. It's reflected in why every Nekotai harbors an irrational urge to make babies with every harbinger they come across (and they also have that bleed-boosting song too!). Will it be enough for the Nihilists' current bleeding kit? I don't know. I don't think so. But well, I guess we could give the bleed from crucifix a boost? Or maybe make limb breaks on a crucifix give a bunch of bleed? Or maybe the question we should be asking is, "Do we want to make Nihilists a bleeding class?"
... Regarding pressuring vitals, anything that can stack a lot of bleeding will do the trick (I'm looking at you Nekotai).
...
This is a little off topic, but just so it's out there, it's been shown in quite a few logs that Ninja and Shofangi both outdo Nekotai in the bleeding department nowadays. Granted, the Neko probably still outdo Nihilists in that respect, thank gods.
Heh, I don't doubt it. I just know that Malarious would drop my mana to zero much faster than any shadow dancer. Although I guess they wouldn't really need to take it to zero.... Anyway, Mal pwned me that one timne and it stood out in my mind. :P
Back on topic, just want to throw out that being a 'bleeding class' complicates balance efforts since bleeding has such good synergy with just about everything. Not impossible but it can be a head scratcher.
I would just point out that there is a difference between "bleeding out," and bleeding as a supplement for a mana kill strategy. I wasn't proposing turning Nihilists into a "bleeding class," in that they the intent was to rework them to such a degree that they can overwhelm people with bleeding akin to nekotai or old telekinetics. What I did was add manabarbs to supplement the existing bleeding mechanics to facilitate wrack. If things need to tweeked here, that's perfectly fine. I'm not looking at turning everything they do into bleed mechanics. You're going further down the rabbit hole than I was intending.
If it's not well received, I can scrap it. I am not attached to the idea, I saw it as a possible solution to the problem removing ectoplasm presented.
I was looking into them because I was told they have an html5 client. They have a very simple curing system. (almost everything gets cured by focus mind, focus body or focus spirit) I was curious to know how much complexity their fighting has and if its fun enough.
Comments
I think it was previously mentioned that writhe stacking was going to go the wayside, so perhaps this can mean that skills like Torture, Spawn, demon pacts/symbols can get upgraded now that Necro has received a downgrade.
Its silly to get worked up about what will happen when envoys have been able to handle situations like this.
Well, there's a difference between zero idea and not the best combatant. I've always said the most important quality is to be a good communicator, which includes communicating with the guildmembers to find out what's truly important and then communicating that through the envoy system. We've certainly had some unproductive envoys who were excellent combatants but ended up alienating other combatants or not being able to successfully articulate their arguments. Likewise, some middle of the road combatants have been great envoys because they were able to communicate with their guild and craft persuasive points for their positions.
The Geomancer envoy has been involved in conversations over envoys as recently as 2 days ago. I can't speak to his combat abilities, but he's certainly amicable and involved in the dialogue.
If it was not communicated by us, no affliction should change in functionality. I believe sensitivity is (without asking Ieptix to check the code) 30%.
This is not realistic.
Q: Is Music Octave going to block all usage of soothing steam (or whatever the spirit cure is) or just the aurics as per normal?
If stats and race are disconnected does that mean taedae lose the slow balance since they will no longer have the str and con bonus?
Also, no more warrior influencing?
Nihilists can increase torture damage with level 15 Deathmark as well.
Its also not like thats the only thing happening in Malarious' scenario, plus, I don't plan on leeching someone if they are not aeoned. If I'm getting a Wrack, it's because they haven't sipped in 10-18 seconds, and it doesn't matter if they have manabarbs or not. I probably wouldn't waste the power or time on an omen (nor do I really ever anyways unless in groups).
On the topic of Nihilists and Manabarbs + bleed...
Well, bleed has always been awesome as a strategy because it forces so many decisions on the victim, and in certain archetypes, the user as well. Those who make the right decisions can neutralize it (up to a certain limit) and its snowballing nature means that if you can exploit an opponent's bad decisions, you can almost certainly guarantee yourself a kill even if they successfully run away from you. It's one of the few strategies that have the potential to completely overwhelm even Healing wiccans. At the same time, if you don't hit the critical mass of bleed, either because of a smart opponent or sub-par usage, you're going to get nowhere. And that, however, is also it's greatest achilles' heel as a workable strategy. There is a delicate balance to be had between giving an archetype too much easy bleed and too little. The former just makes them incredibly overpowered (see: pre-vessels-nerf Nekotai/TK) and the latter means it's overlooked as an option because it's simply ineffective.
I've never been a Nihilist, and I've never seen a Nihilist try to bleed me out before, so I'm not sure what their bleeding output is like. Pretty sure it's not quite enough, though. Whether they will have the ability to stick manabarbs post-overhaul might be pivotal in determining whether it will be a viable strategy then... but I don't think it's possible to successfully bleed out people at the moment as a Nihilist. This is off the top of my head, and I haven't fought a Nihilist in quite a while, so I'm just taking a potshot in the dark here with this comment.
Manabarbs will always boost the effectiveness of bleed because of clot mechanics. It's reflected in why every Nekotai harbors an irrational urge to make babies with every harbinger they come across (and they also have that bleed-boosting song too!). Will it be enough for the Nihilists' current bleeding kit? I don't know. I don't think so. But well, I guess we could give the bleed from crucifix a boost? Or maybe make limb breaks on a crucifix give a bunch of bleed? Or maybe the question we should be asking is, "Do we want to make Nihilists a bleeding class?"
I would just point out that there is a difference between "bleeding out," and bleeding as a supplement for a mana kill strategy. I wasn't proposing turning Nihilists into a "bleeding class," in that they the intent was to rework them to such a degree that they can overwhelm people with bleeding akin to nekotai or old telekinetics. What I did was add manabarbs to supplement the existing bleeding mechanics to facilitate wrack. If things need to tweeked here, that's perfectly fine. I'm not looking at turning everything they do into bleed mechanics. You're going further down the rabbit hole than I was intending.
If it's not well received, I can scrap it. I am not attached to the idea, I saw it as a possible solution to the problem removing ectoplasm presented.
I was curious to know how much complexity their fighting has and if its fun enough.