Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how much clearer we can be about this in terms of giving feedback. It's an unpleasant atmosphere to be involved with. Many members of the staff don't enjoy interacting there, and have told you why. The answer we get back is "well, it's unfair, why aren't you interacting with us?!" instead of "oh, hmm, maybe we should work on x, y, and z."
This is why you don't get nice things.
@Mysrai I've explained this already. When Karagash first appeared, Mag was pretty 'okay' toward him (as much as a random dictator that came out of no where as they could be), and even participated in His events. In fact, I would attest that Karagash was perhaps one of the most accepted Higher gods at the start, compared to the others. It was only later when it seemed like we were getting shafted, that it got ugly. Not only werent Mag players getting anything, especially with all the hard work they put in, BUT they also were being swatted away, their ideas included, for speaking up.
I admit, it got ugly near the end, and lord knows I tried to control some players from being so rude, but there was so much I could do. It -really- was hard to defend Karagash at the end. He really had given Magnagora -nothing-, when others gave some pretty amazing experiences from what I could tell. I mean even if Frai didnt given Gaudi some interesting items, Im told the RP was pretty nice (wtf is Gail anyway), not to mention im pretty sure Frai was going to save Gaudiguch if the lazer was shot at it.
So yes, in conclusion, we -were- nice to him, but as in any relationship, you have to give -and- take, and we were given 0.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Some people refuse to see any perspective but their own. It can be a character flaw IC (Lavinya used to tell Marcella she was too narrow minded quite often), but when it's also ooc it's no wonder the frustrations flow into the game. And when the other side is trying to show you their perspective and your only (and often repeated) response is 'No but, it's really THIS WAY', nothing will ever change. So which came first? Were Mags dicks and thus divine backed way off, or did the divine back off causing Mag to be dicks?
Obviously opinions on that vary depending on your perspective. Sometimes the best thing you can do is literally stop and try and see things through the eyes of the other side, be it admin or a different org (I definitely recommend alting to test it out. My most played alt is in Serenwilde and a pretty polar opposite to Lavinya. It's great seeing how other orgs and people see YOUR org, and experimenting in having different feelings towards your main org. Very eye opening.)
I really hate chiming in on these posts because I don't think anything really gets accomplished, but I feel like I might have an interesting perspective, having come in about halfway through the event (mother was in the hospital for the first part of it so I wasn't involved whatsoever).
By the time I was back, most people in Magnagora were pretty miffed with what was going on. The Necromentate was gone (and thus our ability to make spikes, which is detrimental in multiple ways), people were pissed about losing our Elder Gods (say what you want about Magnagora's "collective" opinion about the Divine, @Mysrai, but we have a lot of people that are very, very passionate about their chosen God) and we wanted to fight back.
Unfortunately, even being around during my normal hours again, which seems to coincide with event times anyway, I really didn't see Karagash at all until... possibly almost a week later. Even though Esca isn't active in an Order any more, he's still the leader of the Nihilists and has a lot of respect for the Pantheon and serves Them as part of his duties, so he came out of the gate very untrusting of Their replacement, but I think even though he wasn't grovelling at Karagash's feet, what Esca did say to Karagash over CT wasn't all that nasty, and I didn't even get a response. Whatever interest I had in trying to involve myself in this event died right there, to the point that I didn't even bother with participating in killing the Higher Gods.
Speaking as someone who was admin on a game (non-IRE) in the past, it really shouldn't matter how you feel about a chosen organization. There were plenty of people whose RP or attitude I didn't particularly care for, but my job as admin (unpaid though it was) was to create and lead plots for players to enjoy. The reality of the world is that there will always be people who you don't like out there, and most of the time you just have to deal.
I hope that the admin reconsiders their attitude towards Magnagora, especially because the people who are outright anti-Divine in the city are quite limited (if noisy) and it's damn unfair to everyone else in the city to punish the rest of them. The only thing you'll do that way is create more people who don't trust the Divine.
I'm on my phone and can't check. How many people liked my picture but flagged Arcanis' response off topic?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Speaking as someone who was admin on a game (non-IRE) in the past, it really shouldn't matter how you feel about a chosen organization. There were plenty of people whose RP or attitude I didn't particularly care for, but my job as admin (unpaid though it was) was to create and lead plots for players to enjoy. The reality of the world is that there will always be people who you don't like out there, and most of the time you just have to deal.
I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. While I do create and lead plots for players to enjoy, I'm certainly not required by the policies of IRE, Lusternia's rules, Estarra's Word of Goddess, or my own code of ethics, to work with players that I decide not to work with. Moreover, while I do take my role fairly seriously, it is not a job. No one in Lusternia is entitled to more time than I personally choose to invest.
Magnagora is certainly not entitled to my time, or my attention, by my own choice.
Gaudiguch, on the other hand, is, by consequence of me Patroning the city. It's something I do find extremely rewarding, as the players there generally aren't adversarial towards me on multiple fronts.
I was talking with someone earlier on this note, actually - the idea that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. While this isn't true (vinegar actually works better), the analogy itself holds true. Reading over this thread, it isn't exactly changing my heart and mind regarding whether or not I want to build anything or run anything for Magnagora.
That's a shame since there have been only... what, five or six Magnagorans including myself that have participated in this thread? We all know that player population is an issue in Lusternia, and lumping an entire organization into one category is nothing but a detriment to making people more engaged. I certainly wouldn't force interaction with specific people (sorry, @Arcanis, @Marcella ) on an admin, but certainly there must be ways to still give attention to all of the other much more deserving players in Magnagora who really do want to have more Divine RP.
I'm not even trying to plead my own case here, as a GM I generally have my hands full just with guild-related things, but there are plenty of great RPers and players in Magnagora who are worthy of attention.
Unfortunately, my opinion is influenced by more than just this thread. The atmosphere in Magnagora (CT, tells to admin, messages to admin, other things I can't talk about), is heavily, unpleasantly saturated with constant negativity and some really ugly conflict.
Every time I'm even adjacent to it, it's very noticeable. I've chosen to abstain, and am very thankful that it's not my problem.
Note: I don't usually go in for posts like these, but it's been eating away at me that all the negative pushback for the event (at least that I've seen) has been in regards to Karagash.
I'm the one who played Karagash for most of the week and I'm calling BS on some of the complaints. Firstly, even at the start there was plenty of 'disrespect' in the form of "we're equal with Divines" and "you need to prove yourself to me". And yes, coming right out of the gate as a Higher God, I count that as disrespect. Maybe it was from one or two and not everyone in Magnagora, but those few seemed the loudest. Give this 'culture shock' and that it was only a few days that I would be Karagash, I did resort to using a lot of zaps and novoice, but I do not recall a single instance where it wasn't because someone was questioning the Higher Gods or some other RP reason. It has been noted already, I think, that we cut the experience/essence loss a good bit for the zaps during the event so I used them more freely than I normally would. This was even after I made an attempt at letting a certain person redeem themselves by engaging in combat with someone from Gaudiguch, which I recall them rejecting.
As for Magnagora getting "nothing", I can't even tell you how upset that makes me. Firstly, everything the others got was in the flow of their RP with the citizens and themselves, nothing was pre-planned. Secondly, I'm pretty sure I was the first to 'give' something, even if it was a simple death challenge proving Magnagora's 'combat prowess'. In following with Karagash's template, I tried to start stuff between Magnagora and Gaudiguch(e.g., Frai), but those I spoke with would have nothing to do with it; instead, it was usually more of "prove yourself to me, since we're equals". I'm not saying I require instant grovelling, etc., but it amazes me that there is a line of thought that you can just tell a god that they're equal to you and not expect retribution of some sort. Thirdly, both Celest and Glomdoring suffered from Karagash's attempt at combat prowess via the rat swarms, the very same night as Magnagora. Celest because Magnagora /asked/ him to, despite turning around and saying Karagash did nothing for them later, and Glomdoring because they taunted Karagash (or the rats or something; after I'd started I think I realized that the shout in question may have been directed elsewhere). Fourthly, if you say you got "nothing" because Karagash didn't go against Aelish, then you weren't going to get anything anyway. Aelish could've swept into Magnagora, decided that the nexus needed to be replaced by a throne for Him and Celest, and Karagash would've had peeps polishing it for him (obviously this is false because nobody in Magnagora would do anything for Karagash apparently until he'd slain every last merian.)
As for admin attitude, I /chose/ to be Karagash and it was the then and there of the event that did sour me a bit towards Magnagora. On top of that, I was juggling tweaking the EOY stuff and studying for the *two* tests I had that week. Not to go into too much detail, but I'm in military retraining and will be for another few months; the way this particular course works is that if I score lower than ~70-80% (test dependent) on 2-3 tests or equivalents during the /entire course/, I'm kicked out of the retraining; that's 2-3 tests cumulative throughout the entire course, and we have them roughly once or twice a week.
So, I'm sorry if players didn't enjoy Karagash, and further sorry if Karagash explicitly caused them to not enjoy the event. As far as I'm concerned, everything Karagash did was RP related between his template and the reaction of Magnagora over time.
I try not to make posts like these, and I've rewritten this several times, but there seems to be a lot of backlash about Karagash. This bothers me, especially the claims that Karagash did nothing for Magnagora, because I worked to include the event in my schedule despite the aforementioned test studying. I'm sure someone else could've stepped up, but they may have had even less time; Ieptix himself pointed out in his god blog that there was still a Higher God unaccounted for by the RP gods that he picked up right before we started
TL;DR: I feel Karagash did/gave more than is claimed. If you were zapped by Karagash I'm like 90% sure there was a legit RP reason. I feel everything Karagash did/didn't do was within his RP. I had a lot on my plate, but still chose to have a go at Karagash (perhaps I shouldn't of). Hopefully this post wasn't too trite, ranty, or unprofessional.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Just a note here. Yes, Magnagora lost the Necromentate, which impacted them in many ways.
Hallifax lost their entire city. They rolled with it and had a grand time.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Sorry to hear that your experience was so poor, @Darvellan. I'd hoped to at least try to interact with Karagash, maybe not the kind of interaction the admin were expecting, but I'm afraid I didn't get anything at all-- not even a zap. And when you left after my multiple attempts to start a conversation with you on CT, it certainly didn't make me feel enthused for the event.
It's a damn shame that there are voices in Magnagora that drown out the rest of us.
EDIT TO ADD: I also think there is a lot of unwillingness to see the other side's perspective. Up untll @Drocilla came to Magnagora, we'd had very little Divine interaction for a long time. I know our Divine were either unplayed or busy coding? I'm not sure about the specifics, but the reality is that Magnagora basically forged their own way with little to no Divine guidance for a long time. I think Drocilla has done a fantastic job in integrating with Mag's play style and that's why Her Order is so popular, but it seems like anyone else on the admin team comes in with certain expectations on how things are going to go and are very upset with things going differently.
Mag is different. We are basically THE city that, in lore, rose from the ashes by themselves. Drocilla proved Herself to Mag by pulling a fast one on New Celest and then firebombing them with Divine missiles. That's why so many of us flocked to Her, not just because we were desperate for a Divine. Look at all of the awesome things Fain and Morgfyre have done in the past (no hate on Raezon, just don't know a lot about Him or His history), there's a reason why people in Mag follow them! I think there are a lot of opportunities for cooperation between admin and Divine if we could all come to the table with an open mind.
And if @Ieptix could code some kind of Divine snub system. >_>
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
It is my hope that we all come out of this with something good. Roleplay is give and take. It is regrettable that both Magnagora and the admin felt that the event did not pan out as both sides had hoped, but hindsight is twenty-twenty. I believe there are admin who care about Magnagora (lest we forget @Drocilla!), and I believe there are players in Magnagora (like @Esca), who care about the admin as well and are distressed by the direction this thread has taken.
Pointing fingers and expressing frustrations can be therapeutic, but much better than dwelling on the past is bettering the future. I wonder if we could discuss the parts of the event that were most enjoyable and beneficial, in the hopes of replicating them for future events?
For example: I loved how responsive the admin were this time around in a largely free-form event. Those must be difficult to plan, and far more difficult to make happen on the fly, but I know it meant the world to players like @Kiradawea who got to really impact events in a meaningful way.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Sorry to hear that your experience was so poor, @Darvellan. I'd hoped to at least try to interact with Karagash, maybe not the kind of interaction the admin were expecting, but I'm afraid I didn't get anything at all-- not even a zap. And when you left after my multiple attempts to start a conversation with you on CT, it certainly didn't make me feel enthused for the event.
It's a damn shame that there are voices in Magnagora that drown out the rest of us.
It wasn't my intent to ignore anyone. Ignore questions, yes. People, not really. If you were ignored, I'd like to think it was chalked up to my multi-tasking or just the flow of text.
It seems the problem Magnagora had was that their Higher God was telling them to fight their ally. From an OOC point of view, any sort of admin driven alliance shift (because, really, this is what it would be seen as) is meet with major anger towards said admin. The fact that Karagash wouldn't go against their major enemy, Celest, made matters even worst on the view of this new Higher God. This mixed with Magnagora 's view that someone, even Gods, must prove themselves first just left a bad taste in the Admin's mouths. These things just made it seem like Karagash from an RP standpoint might not have been the best for Magnagora, at least not if the city wanted to do something with Karagash.
I think you've entirely hit the nail on the head, @Ayisdra. Thanks.
EDIT TO ADD...AGAIN: I'm signing off from the forums at this point. Like I said earlier, I don't really enjoy participating in these sorts of things, but I thought this was important enough to break my forum silence. I hope that some of the admin have at least been willing to listen and believe that there are still plenty of people in Magnagora that want to interact with the Divine.
It wasn't coincidence that a bunch of us left Magnagora. Hell, I ran off with all the power and positions I had worked RL years for, because I just couldn't stand the environment anymore. There are some awesome people still in Magnagora, that is not in question. But I feel that many of them enable and support those that lend to the toxic environment. And those of us that tried to stand against it (Marcella being kicked out of Magnagora for her blasphemy against Morgfyre and plans to kill him or bind him) met with an angry backlash claiming corruption and ooc vendettas.
I love Magnagora. I love the lore. I love the divine. I love the guilds and the roleplay. But I hate what it has devolved to. I heard someone say once that I was the cause of the toxic environment, along with my evil puppet Silvanus. But you know what? We never had this many admin come out and say how much they don't want to work with Magnagora while we were still active there. I have had many, many positive interactions with all the Mag divine, as well as many outside it.
Once upon a time, it was not uncommon for Morgfyre to turn up at the nexus just to hang out. Raezon would often quietly appear or speak (heck he once saved me from a manse I was locked in by flinging me to astral), the first time I remember experiencing Fain was him hanging out at the nexus. And Drocilla has been noticeably active and involved since she first appeared. I know mob possessions certainly picked up and I presume it was her.
So what has changed? I'm not actually saying my leaving is the reason, I'm not that arrogant, but think about the environment and attitudes and how they have dwindled over the years, and more radically in probably the last year. When it's perfectly normal for say, Munsia to talk about being a goddess and insulting to all the divine. When Marcella serves in a foreign god's order and pisses on Morgfyre and thinks that should be perfectly acceptable. Well I think the other players who aren't that way are allowing themselves to become the minority. It's been said a lot that you can have interactions with divine that are not just grovelling, and you can do it without being an abrasive jerk that just discourages any divine from wanting to play with you.
Think about what has always made Magnagora great and try to recapture THAT. Magnagora has always historically been respectful of their divine. Go read some old news posts and see what the old 'legendary' Mags thought of their divine. I guarantee they didn't publically call them out, try to kill them, declare Them weaker than themselves, etc etc.
5
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I guess my question is that, assuming the three separate admin that have stated their reasoning for not wanting to work with Mag are wrong, why is it the prevailing opinion?
I for one had a fucking blast when I got the chance to be logged in for it. It was pretty cool from the perspectives of the two characters I played as.
I guess my question is that, assuming the three separate admin that have stated their reasoning for not wanting to work with Mag are wrong, why is it the prevailing opinion?
This.
I don't understand how some people can keep arguing, at what point do you have to realise you're the common denominator?
Frankly, I feel that publicly posting that you (as an admin/god) do not want to work with a group of players, no matter the reason, is extraordinarily unprofessional. That's the sort of thing that should be kept private regardless of the theme of the thread. Admin are held to much higher standards than players. Heck, they don't even do this in Achaea. They will mod threads, but keep up a professional appearance.
I'm disgusted with you, @Mysrai, and all the other admin who can't handle any kind of RP that isn't fluffy bunnies and all hail the gods. I won't be commenting on this anymore.
I'm not too keen on rolling into this, but I noticed no one poked at this post of yours. So I have to.
What you are doing here is invoking "false dichotomy". Mysrai has definitely dealt with opposition and even members of Their own order not listening to them. Don't see lots of complaints about that though, do you? Tone and temperament can make a big difference on this front, however, and I'm sure it's making a difference here and now, too.
You are putting words into Mysrai's mouth. You could argue that Mysrai can see and understand this, and calmly work through it in their argument, but then, why can't you?
Refusing to budge an inch only works so well in some situations. I hope this sort of behaviour is not reflective of how you (or the general mag populace) routinely work with admin.
Maybe Magnagora needs less RP gods and more mask - wearing, hatred spewing, cut off your head and spike it to the side of the Megalith divine. The kind that make you simultaneously vomit and soil yourself when they ordain you. The kind that are perfectly willing to pick you up by the throat and use you to beat another player.
Not that rp isn't a good thing, but Magnagora needs needs a firm hand on the reins.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Maybe Magnagora needs less RP gods and more mask - wearing, hatred spewing, cut off your head and spike it to the side of the Megalith divine. The kind that make you simultaneously vomit and soil yourself when they ordain you. The kind that are perfectly willing to pick you up by the throat and use you to beat another player.
Not that rp isn't a good thing, but Magnagora needs needs a firm hand on the reins.
Ok so... the event. I was disappointed it didn't last longer, felt a bit excluded icly since there were no ic real time posts or anything, and lack of logs on forums made me antsy to know more. Admittedly I couldn't be on as often as I wanted because rl stuff and sleep being a thing. But otherwise, I think it was pretty awesome conceptwise at least in terms of being something new over the past few years. A quest where multiple people can get honours at the same time? Cool. (Or so I understand it?)
One thing it did point out to me was how lacking Hallifax also meant lacking labs to make institute weapons in, and that was a bummer. So a lot of plex sitting for me. And I think... other guardian guilds can make their weapons outside of their org?
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots. Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
Comments
secondly,
@Mysrai I've explained this already. When Karagash first appeared, Mag was pretty 'okay' toward him (as much as a random dictator that came out of no where as they could be), and even participated in His events. In fact, I would attest that Karagash was perhaps one of the most accepted Higher gods at the start, compared to the others. It was only later when it seemed like we were getting shafted, that it got ugly. Not only werent Mag players getting anything, especially with all the hard work they put in, BUT they also were being swatted away, their ideas included, for speaking up.
I admit, it got ugly near the end, and lord knows I tried to control some players from being so rude, but there was so much I could do. It -really- was hard to defend Karagash at the end. He really had given Magnagora -nothing-, when others gave some pretty amazing experiences from what I could tell. I mean even if Frai didnt given Gaudi some interesting items, Im told the RP was pretty nice (wtf is Gail anyway), not to mention im pretty sure Frai was going to save Gaudiguch if the lazer was shot at it.
So yes, in conclusion, we -were- nice to him, but as in any relationship, you have to give -and- take, and we were given 0.
Pssst, this will get flagged
My plan is working
Edit: darn..forgot off-topic.
Hallifax lost their entire city. They rolled with it and had a grand time.
It seems the problem Magnagora had was that their Higher God was telling them to fight their ally. From an OOC point of view, any sort of admin driven alliance shift (because, really, this is what it would be seen as) is meet with major anger towards said admin. The fact that Karagash wouldn't go against their major enemy, Celest, made matters even worst on the view of this new Higher God. This mixed with Magnagora 's view that someone, even Gods, must prove themselves first just left a bad taste in the Admin's mouths. These things just made it seem like Karagash from an RP standpoint might not have been the best for Magnagora, at least not if the city wanted to do something with Karagash.
hun, enjoy yourself, you're happy you're gone, we are happy you're gone. -stay gone- for everyone.
Not that rp isn't a good thing, but Magnagora needs needs a firm hand on the reins.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
Ok so... the event. I was disappointed it didn't last longer, felt a bit excluded icly since there were no ic real time posts or anything, and lack of logs on forums made me antsy to know more. Admittedly I couldn't be on as often as I wanted because rl stuff and sleep being a thing. But otherwise, I think it was pretty awesome conceptwise at least in terms of being something new over the past few years. A quest where multiple people can get honours at the same time? Cool. (Or so I understand it?)
One thing it did point out to me was how lacking Hallifax also meant lacking labs to make institute weapons in, and that was a bummer. So a lot of plex sitting for me. And I think... other guardian guilds can make their weapons outside of their org?
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)