I'm also not saying that multiclass doesn't come with it's own list of cons, but if the topic of the thread is, "how do I get people to buy more credits", then multiclass is a legitimate answer. More so than 'let people rejoin guilds easier', like 100x more effective IMO.
I would even argue that multiclass is one the better credit-buying reasons than one-time artifacts or pet effects or something that you just get and forget. With multiclass, it's a lot more time and investment comparatively (since you have to learn so many more skills, get more arties, etc).
Not the best way to argue against the idea, personally. It'd be dumb to just allow access to endgame content with credits for a lot of reasons other than just credits.
I disagree with your assessment of my argument. I believe that making multiclass, even paid multiclass, a thing is every bit as dangerous to the health of Lusternia as purchaseable demigod.
I can safely say that people would have to argue very hard before I'd ever vote for them having access to SD skills. As long as guilds have a say in who can and can't multiclass as that class, then I wouldn't have much of a problem with it, really.
Achaea will have it (Sarapis is working on implementing it per a recent thread, multiclass as we are talking about hasn't actually existed, houses != multiclass), Aetolia has it, Midkemia has it, Imperian has it, all of which aren't dying games. In fact, Aetolia still remains as one of the best loved IRE games when it comes to RP. There's my proof that games with multiclass can work without necessarily sacrificing RP, so where's the argument/proof that says otherwise?
Oh, and personally I would prefer the mantle that Shuyin proposed (having a mantle would give you slots for multiclass) as opposed to the mantle that Chade suggested (one mantle per class), since the latter would mean that guilds had a say in if people got any use at all out of their 300-credit investment.
Definitely not "100x". Let's step back a minute here.
I can certainly see an immediate interest and surge of purchases from such a decision. This would come largely from the small cadre of people who already have pretty much everything they want and have free income to spend. But in a few months? I'm not so sure.
If I was a novice in some tiny guild and my guild leaders were using skillsets that don't even belong to my guild, I think I'd start to have some serious questions about the legitimacy/purpose of guilds existing at all. Why bother with this when we could sensibly dissolve guilds and incorporate existing guild specific powers into their orgs somehow?
What guilds do/practice is very strongly tied to their skills. I think it'd be inexcusable for me to still have access to Continuum nexus powers while effectively being an Aeromancer, sorry. I don't want to see the Paladins Champion running around playing Starhymn.
At the very least, should this be considered, I think use of guild nexus powers needs to be restricted to having your own guild skills, and being an elected guild leader means you can't use your mantle. Period.
You can say that guilds can/should restrict access as they like, but then, you're going to have people on the other side insisting they should have access because they paid for it (this is already a general issue with nerfing powerful artifacts). It sounds more like a recipe for larger guilds to rail on and bully small guilds to accept their big credit carriers than anything else, leading to more antagonistic inter-org drama than is particularly necessary or warranted.
Nevermind what arguments might open for guild-restricted tradeskills (though I'm pretty sure everyone around would be more permissive to this than anything else).
The majority of players will buy more credits when it feels like it is worth a damn and when they are enjoying themselves. If this is what the majority of people want/would be motivated by, then okay. But I don't really see it working just like so.
Actually, you could even make the first slot (going by my idea here) cost something like 25-50 cr (or even free) then just scale up a lot more to encourage the poor hobo player to give it a shot once they've transed the skills they want in their main class.
As I said, there's always room for compromise. If the problem is that only the rich will do multiclass, there's always a way to make it so the non-rich can enjoy it as well. So, if you do it right, you're not necessarily limiting this new feature to the elite only.
By that same token, I'm also fine with restricting guild nexus powers to the "right" class only too, same with champ arties.
P.S. the 100x more effective comment is obviously my opinion and is slightly exaggerated. I still do think it encourages more credit purchases than simply allowing people to hop guilds a bit more easily. My idea at least allows some form of loyalty to remain with your guild.
I agree with the guilds comment, the insular guild structure does more to harm than it does to help, in my opinion. That is: I (and possibly others) already have serious doubts about the legitimacy/purpose of guilds.
That said, I think that common arguments against something like this assume that every combination will be used and that every guild will be coerced to make use of this ability, but that's just not so. Look at the covenants mechanic, and how many guilds used that. Sure, some covenants would potentially be inappropriate, and those guilds didn't make those covenants. In that same vein some guilds base most of their identity on what their skills are. The Serenguard are one of Serenwilde's most coherent and best flavored guild, and as far as I'm aware their culture has very little to do with their skills, if anything.
An echo of my previous post: Don't make this an artifact. If it absolutely must be another mechanic only available via artifact, that artifact should not be guild specific.
EDIT: My aetolian character has a cross-guild skillset, from an entirely different (but allied) org. To get it, I had to roleplay the character's motivation pretty hard and continue to do so when I pick the character back up now and again. It provided an interesting hook, not only for playing the character, but for interacting with the characters, as it was physically obvious (especially as I customized my clothes and a few other choice things to reflect the dual class nature of the character) to observers, who would ask about it. Basically, it didn't dilute my RP experience at all in my guild and I don't think it diluted the RP of the skill's original guild.
I think this could be done to retain Lusternian culture while still allowing flexibility.
It couldn't possibly be any more harmful to a guild than having people just totally walk away any time they get the urge to dabble with other skills but don't want to level a whole new alt. Losing guild mates to a boring afternoon's wanderlust is pretty rough.
I would much rather see novices bravely persevere through about a second's worth of confusion than have them be completely abandoned because everyone hopped ship to try something new.
Requiring guild approval and or limiting it to covenants would keep it pretty limited in scope.
Serenguard culture has next to nothing to do with the skills, aside from the fact that we use them. The focus of the guild exists regardless of what exact skills we have.
I'd love to be able to flex skills a little bit between guilds. I'd have fun playing around with the other Seren guild's skills.
That being said, I would ask that this please be generally available if it's made available at all, rather than an artifact. You will see more credit purchases as people strive to learn new skills and equip themselves with things important to that class.
I don't have the inherent hatred of multi-class that some people seem to, admittedly.
Multiclassing, especially when done with the covenant system (though I would allow it to go as free as any class within an org) would mean that people could have up-to-date knowledge and experience of two guilds, and assist twice as much new players. Nekotai and shadowdancers share a covenant, but I know fuck all about their skills, and their leaders probably don't know my skills, and would have to level up an alt to experience them fully in order to help a relative newbie like me with questions like "how do I do combat" or even "how do I hunt". I personally feel that what Lusternia needs in the short and long term is more active players, and I think multiclassing could be helpful in this. And even if the game were very active, I still think it would be worth it as I don't see any drawbacks.
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Becoming a little bit of a sidetrack here, but I also suggest that guilds try to develop an identity that is substantially devorced from their skills, if possible. After all, skills can (and will) change from time to time.
I personally prefer the idea of being able to leave and rejoin a guild, assuming you had made GR5 and the guild leaders approved (added you to the list) prior to your leaving the guild.
At that point you can swap back to that guild whenever you want, retaining your rank. This is preferable to needing to wait for leaders at the time you want to rejoin; that decision was made earlier.
Leaders can choose to remove you from that list whenever, and leaving the org would wipe you from all lists in that org.
It gives some control over the process, it ensures you are in the guild with your skills, and (theoretically) it also ensures that you have some knowledge of the guild you have this bond with.
Okay, this conversation has gone all over the place and left me (as usual!) a little confused.... if we were to do an artifact for multiclassing, how would you like it to work?
I personally prefer the idea of being able to leave and rejoin a guild, assuming you had made GR5 and the guild leaders approved (added you to the list) prior to your leaving the guild.
At that point you can swap back to that guild whenever you want, retaining your rank. This is preferable to needing to wait for leaders at the time you want to rejoin; that decision was made earlier.
Leaders can choose to remove you from that list whenever, and leaving the org would wipe you from all lists in that org.
It gives some control over the process, it ensures you are in the guild with your skills, and (theoretically) it also ensures that you have some knowledge of the guild you have this bond with.
If we were doing an artifact for multiclassing, it should be a cheap (50 credits) consumed item that increases class 'slots'. Everyone starts with 1 class slot, automatically filled when they join a guild, with the skills of that guild. With the permission of another guild (via their guild leaders), you can occupy another slot with their skillsets. You can change class up to once per IG month, and all your guild skills automatically temp forget and swap to the ones you have active in that class.
EDIT: Give leaders a priv to list all those allowed to swap to their class, and the ability to rescind permission, which could refund the lessons used at the option of the user.
If we're doing multiclass, I'd rather it not be an artifact at all. It's too big an advantage to be limited in that fashion, and it adds a whole new layer of unattainability for newer and less wealthy players, on top of the ones we have already.
That's my opinion regardless of what version of multiclass ever becomes available. I'm seeing requests for "hop guilds at will" and "two full guild ability sets at once" style multiclass, here.
Buy a multiclass slot for a cost (free-50 cr for the first slot, up to 4 max for 5 slots total with scaling costs for more slots beyond the first. I would suggest making the 1st/2nd slot be relatively affordable then have it jump a lot).
Once you have a slot, get permission from a guild leader with the class you want to learn from. The guild leaders will have a command to do this, along with a command to list all of the people with the skills (along with a note in the logs), -and- they will have a way to strip the skills as they see fit. This will be limited to same city only for balance/RP reasons.
Once you get permission/approved, now you're able to SKILLCHOICE SELECT skills from that guild. Your current class/etc will be temporarily forgotten and all of your defenses will be wiped. Limit being able to switch classes to once per IG month/RL day (you can probably create an artie that makes it once per RL hour if you want, too). You will be unable to use champ arties, guild nexus powers, and similar benefits while in another class.
Switch classes from then on will simply require that you be at a tutor-like denizen and you can only do it once per RL day, as usual. I would prefer it be possible for the game to remember what skills you had before you flexed classes so you're not stuck having to activate individual skills.
Okay, this conversation has gone all over the place and left me (as usual!) a little confused.... if we were to do an artifact for multiclassing, how would you like it to work?
Well, here's what I'm thinking then. An expensive artifact that allows true multiclass once per game month. However, the multi-class would be guild based, i.e., a Celestine may assume the mantel of a Paladin and be able to skillflex to any skill available to paladin after temporarily forgetting celestine skills.
However, the prerequisite is that you need to get permission from one of the paladin guild leaders to be able to assume the paladin mantel, and such privilege could be revoked at any time (though you can get permissions from however many guilds as would have you). Thus, an Illuminati wouldn't be able to skillflex Paladin skills without their permission.
Of course, the guild of the person assuming mantels may or may not look fondly upon certain powers being used by that person (like a Celestine using necromancy), but that'd be between them.
I didn't read through the rest of the comments, but I bolded the issue. There are (will be, if this goes through) people who will get permission to multiclass from a guild, arti up... and then there will be a leadership change who will not like that person and take away their permission. I assume you'll offer a 100% refund on the now useless artifacts? I GUARANTEE this will happen, and I don't like this idea one bit if that tidbit will be included in it.
Have it require approval from all 3 leaders, like stripping honors. I'd also be fine with having the permission granting be something all 3 leaders have to do as well.
Lots of checks and balances possible.
If you want drama, have it require permission from 2/3 leaders, but I prefer the drama free version.
If you get all 3 leaders to hate you, then I fear that the issue is you.
Alliances wouldn't play a part in it since I'm firmly of the stance that if multiclass were to happen, you can only multiclass skills within your city. So you can be a Templar-Pyromancer-Minstrel, but you can't be a Templar-Ur'Guard-Moondancer.
People may or may not get burnt, but I feel that Lusternia as a whole is pretty fair about that sort of thing.
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You could also make buying demigod for credits a possibility, and people would buy credits. Doesn't make it a good idea.
Edit: wrong argument lolz
I disagree with your assessment of my argument. I believe that making multiclass, even paid multiclass, a thing is every bit as dangerous to the health of Lusternia as purchaseable demigod.
I can certainly see an immediate interest and surge of purchases from such a decision. This would come largely from the small cadre of people who already have pretty much everything they want and have free income to spend. But in a few months? I'm not so sure.
If I was a novice in some tiny guild and my guild leaders were using skillsets that don't even belong to my guild, I think I'd start to have some serious questions about the legitimacy/purpose of guilds existing at all. Why bother with this when we could sensibly dissolve guilds and incorporate existing guild specific powers into their orgs somehow?
What guilds do/practice is very strongly tied to their skills. I think it'd be inexcusable for me to still have access to Continuum nexus powers while effectively being an Aeromancer, sorry. I don't want to see the Paladins Champion running around playing Starhymn.
At the very least, should this be considered, I think use of guild nexus powers needs to be restricted to having your own guild skills, and being an elected guild leader means you can't use your mantle. Period.
You can say that guilds can/should restrict access as they like, but then, you're going to have people on the other side insisting they should have access because they paid for it (this is already a general issue with nerfing powerful artifacts). It sounds more like a recipe for larger guilds to rail on and bully small guilds to accept their big credit carriers than anything else, leading to more antagonistic inter-org drama than is particularly necessary or warranted.
Nevermind what arguments might open for guild-restricted tradeskills (though I'm pretty sure everyone around would be more permissive to this than anything else).
The majority of players will buy more credits when it feels like it is worth a damn and when they are enjoying themselves. If this is what the majority of people want/would be motivated by, then okay. But I don't really see it working just like so.
They already did that, it's called golden lips and aetherbashing.
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I would much rather see novices bravely persevere through about a second's worth of confusion than have them be completely abandoned because everyone hopped ship to try something new.
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At that point you can swap back to that guild whenever you want, retaining your rank. This is preferable to needing to wait for leaders at the time you want to rejoin; that decision was made earlier.
Leaders can choose to remove you from that list whenever, and leaving the org would wipe you from all lists in that org.
It gives some control over the process, it ensures you are in the guild with your skills, and (theoretically) it also ensures that you have some knowledge of the guild you have this bond with.
Shuyin's idea is excellent.
Though I suppose you could use the same artifact on whatever class your new alliance is.
I just see people getting burnt.