Right now potions and salves tend to use between 10 and 20 herbs (without counting allheale and vitae). Thus I aimed for 15 herbs per potion/salve made. Accounting for availability in the needed terrains (adjusting for org-control when it comes to flax, which is generally found in villages, and marjoram and galingale which is hugely controlled by Glomdoring and Serenwilde, but not adjusting sargassum since the Inner Sea and the Sea of Despair aren't technically org-controlled), these are the numbers I'd suggest instead of simply one each:
EDIT: I'd also suggest each batch of wafers would create five, so you'd keep the 1:1 herb-to-cure ratio that exists today. With the spatula that'd (I'd assume) become ten. The clumps of steam sound pretty good, since you get between ten and thirty puffs per anyway.
Right now potions and salves tend to use between 10 and 20 herbs (without counting allheale and vitae). Thus I aimed for 15 herbs per potion/salve made. Accounting for availability in the needed terrains (adjusting for org-control when it comes to flax, which is generally found in villages, and marjoram and galingale which is hugely controlled by Glomdoring and Serenwilde, but not adjusting sargassum since the Inner Sea and the Sea of Despair aren't technically org-controlled), these are the numbers I'd suggest instead of simply one each:
EDIT: I'd also suggest each batch of wafers would create five, so you'd keep the 1:1 herb-to-cure ratio that exists today. With the spatula that'd (I'd assume) become ten. The clumps of steam sound pretty good, since you get between ten and thirty puffs per anyway.
I rather like steam/dust/ice/slush so trying to mix it up more:
a clump of soothing steam (smoke to cure spirit afflictions)
a wafer of purity dust (eat to cure internal afflictions)
restorative ice salve (apply to cure external afflictions)
lucidity slush potion (drink to cure mental afflictions)
Steingrim, that was amazing! However, I think I'm going to make an executive decision and go with the above.
Seems for the best. Lore is great to have and it is fun to Google to see where ideas like High Magic names, etc come from, but keeping cures simple to understand seems best.
Possible wrinkle to watch out for? If both systems are in place for the playerbase at the same time...might the separate balances create a issue with overlapping curing balances? For instance could one sip a lucidity slush potion (mental aff potion balance?) and then eat pennyroyal (herb balance) and thereby cure two mental affs?
I think these new overhaul ideas sounds rather interesting and much better proposed than previous overhaul ideas.
I personally feel that somewhere along the lines, the serverside curing should be taken a look at (AB DISCIPLINE CURING). I feel this would even the playing field a bunch instead of separating those who can code a great curing system and those with no coding knowledge at all. I know Achaea has implemented a server-side curing and (from what I have heard) is doing well so far. I feel this would definitely encourage more people to begin learning how to fight and would remove the enormous combat entry level of having to code your own system. Not sure if this has already been added to the overhaul agenda, so apologies if I'm just repeating things which have already been said!
Possible wrinkle to watch out for? If both systems are in place for the playerbase at the same time...might the separate balances create a issue with overlapping curing balances? For instance could one sip a lucidity slush potion (mental aff potion balance?) and then eat pennyroyal (herb balance) and thereby cure two mental affs?
I am presuming, based on how it sounds like things are laid out................
When a guild is "converted" those affs will require the new cures and old cures stop working. So there is no cure overlap if that is the case because the cure changed... this is just what I assumed from the idea of the rollout though.
Possible wrinkle to watch out for? If both systems are in place for the playerbase at the same time...might the separate balances create a issue with overlapping curing balances? For instance could one sip a lucidity slush potion (mental aff potion balance?) and then eat pennyroyal (herb balance) and thereby cure two mental affs?
I am presuming, based on how it sounds like things are laid out................
When a guild is "converted" those affs will require the new cures and old cures stop working. So there is no cure overlap if that is the case because the cure changed... this is just what I assumed from the idea of the rollout though.
Yes and no, I am assuming they will use some background tricks. Remember, the new system uses a database, the old system didn't so..... Sensitivity in database vs sensitivity not are two different things, even if they seem otherwise identical.
That is you eat pennyroyal (in zscript) #if (stupidity) {cureStupid} vs eat mentalCureThing #if (#ismember("stupidity", afflictions)) {cureStupidDB}
From talking on Envoys, there should be some 'fuzziness' to releases hopefully, such that the changes won't be cold-introduced live to the game without a feedback period to work out some of the kinks.
That said, it makes sense to me to release the new cure creation methods far before those cures are made active, so that people can stock up in preparation for the day they go live.
Actually, my thought was to introduce the changes live but slowly. Like one or two afflictions at a time and get feedback and then make adjustments and then move on to the next couple of afflictions.
One or two afflictions, or one or two skills? Changing every guilds version of an affliction makes it fairly uniform, but also potentially hard to balance if we have two sets of cures, especially if they do not overlap on balance... or conversely... if the new systems cure rates aren't balanced first.
Is it 1 cure per 5 seconds like overhaul? That makes all new afflictions far stronger than old ones in cure time. If you can cure two afflictions at once you couldn't before though that also causes issues. I can explain again if that does not make enough sense.
I am biased to delayed roll out, once a change is given an okay by envoys, give out a notice on the change so systems can be prepared for the change as it comes out. If it comes out that day, systems will not all be on the same page and it will be a mess depending on update speeds.
You already said envoys are handling it, which I think could potentially cause more issues, but I assume in a new system there is no arms race when everyone is bringing new weapons.
Possible wrinkle to watch out for? If both systems are in place for the playerbase at the same time...might the separate balances create a issue with overlapping curing balances? For instance could one sip a lucidity slush potion (mental aff potion balance?) and then eat pennyroyal (herb balance) and thereby cure two mental affs?
I am presuming, based on how it sounds like things are laid out................
When a guild is "converted" those affs will require the new cures and old cures stop working. So there is no cure overlap if that is the case because the cure changed... this is just what I assumed from the idea of the rollout though.
Changes will mostly be happening by affliction, not by guild. There will undoubtedly be places where larger skill-specific changes will need to accompany these changes, but the primary unit we'll be working with (at least for the first stage of this) is the affliction, not the skill.
Anyhow, for the original question, I've not yet worked out exactly how the curing mechanics will interact during the transition period. I'll work something out to avoid as much awkwardness here as possible.
That sounds like a really bad idea to me, it'll have all kinds of unintended side-effects, huge mess. Once things go live, they tend to... hit the fan.
EDIT: I'd also suggest each batch of wafers would create five, so you'd keep the 1:1 herb-to-cure ratio that exists today. With the spatula that'd (I'd assume) become ten....
Why? Why wouldn't it be 10 (20 with the spatula)? it isn't as if cooks can use kegs to increase how much to make? On the plus side nice there's a bone tossed to cooks in this system.
Yeah, there may be some side-effects for slowly introducing the affliction change live but honestly there's no other way to do it. From the input (or lack thereof) we've had from the prior overhaul, there doesn't seem to be much interest in testing on a split system or on a test server, especially the type of testing needed that requires updating systems and vigorous combat. The best thing, I think, will be the slow live release which will allow for the type of testing that results in constructive feedback.
In any event, I can post some of the affliction changes before they go live for people to comment on, but keep in mind that we don't want to get bogged down by theorycrafting or being diverted on tangents that address agendas other than the task at hand.
EDIT: I'd also suggest each batch of wafers would create five, so you'd keep the 1:1 herb-to-cure ratio that exists today. With the spatula that'd (I'd assume) become ten....
Why? Why wouldn't it be 10 (20 with the spatula)? it isn't as if cooks can use kegs to increase how much to make? On the plus side nice there's a bone tossed to cooks in this system.
I equalled a keg rune to the spatula (they both cost 300 credits). Both double what's created. Kegs by themselves don't increase how much is created through alchemy, they only make it easier to lug around 100 vials worth of sips. The only "perk" for kegs is that you can step the increases up; 75 credits gives you a 25% increase, 150 credits gives you a 50% increase, and 300 credits gives you a 100% increase.
EDIT: Or if it was in reference to how alchemists create more cures out of fewer herbs, well, it's how things have always been. I'd assume because of the need for powerstones.
Don't misunderstand though; if you want to make a case for 10 wafers to be created by one batch, go ahead! I won't argue against it too much, except to explain my viewpoint (which I believe I've already done). If you've got other reasons for why it should be increased, I wouldn't mind too much seeing the batch increased a bit.
Yeah, there may be some side-effects for slowly introducing the affliction change live but honestly there's no other way to do it. From the input (or lack thereof) we've had from the prior overhaul, there doesn't seem to be much interest in testing on a split system or on a test server, especially the type of testing needed that requires updating systems and vigorous combat. The best thing, I think, will be the slow live release which will allow for the type of testing that results in constructive feedback.
In any event, I can post some of the affliction changes before they go live for people to comment on, but keep in mind that we don't want to get bogged down by theorycrafting or being diverted on tangents that address agendas other than the task at hand.
Let us know how different they will look and we can work from there. "Hey we are changing aff X next week, that will become DB" If we get some time ahead of it we can prep a toggle in systems to set it as the new version and all. There is no ideal roll out, release as shell and few people test it as bogged down, release it live and we have issues.
Can we put some problem skills on the change list at the same time? Things like sluggishness for instance? Not sure how long before envoys can submit reports on problems, the last round of envoy reports wasn't put in either.
Yeah, there may be some side-effects for slowly introducing the affliction change live but honestly there's no other way to do it. From the input (or lack thereof) we've had from the prior overhaul, there doesn't seem to be much interest in testing on a split system or on a test server, especially the type of testing needed that requires updating systems and vigorous combat. The best thing, I think, will be the slow live release which will allow for the type of testing that results in constructive feedback.
In any event, I can post some of the affliction changes before they go live for people to comment on, but keep in mind that we don't want to get bogged down by theorycrafting or being diverted on tangents that address agendas other than the task at hand.
Understandable.
I think there's a bit of a tendency for some to assume if there's envoys to leave it up to them. I hadn't heard about the test server being open to the general public, not that you said it was.
I do think, or hope they'd be a bit more support when the testing required is more limited, focused, timely, and responsive.
Is it even possible to do something like it rolls out to the arena for a half week to a week then live? Or making the test servers generally available and rolling out from there when you're satisfied? Or some other solution?
Or making test servers avalible non-generally, they're usually not very robust, heh.
EDIT: There's a difference between 'theorycrafting' and "Oh crap, you changed the way xyz works and now my class inescapably locks instantly with abc secret trick", or what have you. Unexpected problems inevitably crop up, and when it's something as far reaching as "the combat system of the entire game", having an extra buffer to stress test for those problems before everyone has their hands on things can only help.
Or making test servers avalible non-generally, they're usually not very robust, heh.
EDIT: There's a difference between 'theorycrafting' and "Oh crap, you changed the way xyz works and now my class inescapably locks instantly with abc secret trick", or what have you. Unexpected problems inevitably crop up, and when it's something as far reaching as "the combat system of the entire game", having an extra buffer to stress test for those problems before everyone has their hands on things can only help.
Like if new asthma is cured by eating, but old anorexia stops that? Not saying that can even come up, but issues of timing for afflictions and all.
Part of the reason I was hoping for more phased and player-tested introduction is that I have some serious misgivings about the specifics here, and am very concerned that once live... no substantial changes will be made (ever).
From what was said on the Envoys channel, I was under the impression that there would be more interactive feedback before 'finalizing' any changes than has been done with previous overhauls and special reports, is that going to be the case?
We're going to release live the afflictions and then ask for feedback. Sorry if you have no confidence in that! For the most part, it will just be changing cures, i.e., epilepsy may change to only get cured with the lucidity slush potion.
I feel compelled to note that the simplified affliction list going live is not the final stage of this overhaul, and there will be a great deal of work following the changes from both sides to readjust everything, and some classes may very well need robust reports to bring them back in line. Believing that the changes will go live and then subsequently be ignored and players left to their own devices is not a belief grounded with rationality. I've had a heavy hand in the new list and am keenly aware of the breadth of these changes, and the likelihood of unforseen consequences. However, short term consequences are just that: short term. Save for the few that will inevitably decry the unavoidable bump in the road the end of Lusternian PK, we shall all survive and the game shall be better for it. So I shall repeat, the release is not final. Things will change.
Made some wafers:
They seem rather expensive. Myrtle is rather scarce and Calamus moderately
high. Cheapest I found any of the herbs was 6 all the way up to 30.
Myrtle averaged about 25-30. My suggestion would be for the Admin to do a
search on shops for herbs total number and median cost and decide if
any adjustments need to be made.
The decay on new wafers was: about to decay.
The wafers couldn't be eaten.
Wafer didn't seem searchable from the aetherplex.
ir wafer doesn't work.
puritydust shows up under 'Curative Herbs' in the rift.
I would also suggest since they'll be few cures that you'd be able to
ware cure (not sure if you can) and portal search cure.
Wafers seem labor intensive. I didn't track time as well as I
should, but it seemed to take ages to make about 4k wafers. I don't know how balance for cooking compares to alchemy.
I priced at 25 gold each for materials,
time and trouble and still don't feel like it would be worth bothering
to try and meet demand.
Myrtle and Calamus: I suppose some of the myrtle supply will free up
when things change, but from the wiki myrtle was only used in
melancholic and fire, while calamus only in vitae, under the new system it would seem those herbs would become even more scarce.
Comments
Right now potions and salves tend to use between 10 and 20 herbs (without counting allheale and vitae). Thus I aimed for 15 herbs per potion/salve made. Accounting for availability in the needed terrains (adjusting for org-control when it comes to flax, which is generally found in villages, and marjoram and galingale which is hugely controlled by Glomdoring and Serenwilde, but not adjusting sargassum since the Inner Sea and the Sea of Despair aren't technically org-controlled), these are the numbers I'd suggest instead of simply one each:
Restorative ice salve:
1 Flax, 2 Sage, 4 Marjoram, 1 Wormwood, 8 Juniper
Lucidity slush potion:
4 Arnica, 2 Galingale, 3 Sargassum, 4 Kafe, 1 Pennyroyal
EDIT: I'd also suggest each batch of wafers would create five, so you'd keep the 1:1 herb-to-cure ratio that exists today. With the spatula that'd (I'd assume) become ten. The clumps of steam sound pretty good, since you get between ten and thirty puffs per anyway.
Possible wrinkle to watch out for? If both systems are in place for the playerbase at the same time...might the separate balances create a issue with overlapping curing balances? For instance could one sip a lucidity slush potion (mental aff potion balance?) and then eat pennyroyal (herb balance) and thereby cure two mental affs?
I think these new overhaul ideas sounds rather interesting and much better proposed than previous overhaul ideas.
I personally feel that somewhere along the lines, the serverside curing should be taken a look at (AB DISCIPLINE CURING). I feel this would even the playing field a bunch instead of separating those who can code a great curing system and those with no coding knowledge at all. I know Achaea has implemented a server-side curing and (from what I have heard) is doing well so far. I feel this would definitely encourage more people to begin learning how to fight and would remove the enormous combat entry level of having to code your own system. Not sure if this has already been added to the overhaul agenda, so apologies if I'm just repeating things which have already been said!
The way you listed would work, But I thought aff names would get reused so in practice not sure how that works. Sensitivity and Sensitivity2?
In any event, I can post some of the affliction changes before they go live for people to comment on, but keep in mind that we don't want to get bogged down by theorycrafting or being diverted on tangents that address agendas other than the task at hand.
I equalled a keg rune to the spatula (they both cost 300 credits). Both double what's created. Kegs by themselves don't increase how much is created through alchemy, they only make it easier to lug around 100 vials worth of sips. The only "perk" for kegs is that you can step the increases up; 75 credits gives you a 25% increase, 150 credits gives you a 50% increase, and 300 credits gives you a 100% increase.
EDIT: Or if it was in reference to how alchemists create more cures out of fewer herbs, well, it's how things have always been. I'd assume because of the need for powerstones.
I think there's a bit of a tendency for some to assume if there's envoys to leave it up to them. I hadn't heard about the test server being open to the general public, not that you said it was.
I do think, or hope they'd be a bit more support when the testing required is more limited, focused, timely, and responsive.
Is it even possible to do something like it rolls out to the arena for a half week to a week then live? Or making the test servers generally available and rolling out from there when you're satisfied? Or some other solution?
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
(In that you can begin stocking them if you want--they don't do anything yet.)
From what was said on the Envoys channel, I was under the impression that there would be more interactive feedback before 'finalizing' any changes than has been done with previous overhauls and special reports, is that going to be the case?
The decay on new wafers was: about to decay.
The wafers couldn't be eaten.
Wafer didn't seem searchable from the aetherplex.
ir wafer doesn't work.
puritydust shows up under 'Curative Herbs' in the rift.
I would also suggest since they'll be few cures that you'd be able to ware cure (not sure if you can) and portal search cure.
Wafers seem labor intensive. I didn't track time as well as I should, but it seemed to take ages to make about 4k wafers. I don't know how balance for cooking compares to alchemy.
I priced at 25 gold each for materials, time and trouble and still don't feel like it would be worth bothering to try and meet demand. Myrtle and Calamus: I suppose some of the myrtle supply will free up when things change, but from the wiki myrtle was only used in melancholic and fire, while calamus only in vitae, under the new system it would seem those herbs would become even more scarce.
I'll think of ways for wafers to perhaps be easier to create in batches.
I do think the cost of herbs will adjust once people get used to what's needed for the new cures. Get on it, herbalists!
Regarding the cost of creating wafers, supply & demand should adjust the prices. If it's not worth it, then raise your prices!