Sorry, I misunderstood your post. By the time someone is 'certainly mafia', they usually don't have a night phase of living left in which to be given the doll, and a townie is more likely to die than a mafioso.
Well, because the doll would become an oddity. At that early in the game and with the flavor I assume a doll that uses the life of its owner, it would probably be regarded as a cultist/mafia power. Thus, that person would probably be protected as someone who isn't Scum, since they were targeted. However, later, against a certain scum target, the ability would be viewed as a positive. Maybe it was a delayed block or something. I would probably say that the doll protected against janitor powers. Thus, I would be pretty certain to win. Also, if the person discovered that the doll could be passed on, then it would be viewed as even more suspicious.
Hmm! If we want the Sandshrew out of the game, we can just let Rolsand win and carry it away.
By the way, Ssaliss, how did you do the forum functionality to get everyone's post count?
Out of the two pokemon that I consider dangerous for the enemy to have, I would consider Kilee's far more dangerous for the mafia to have than Rolsand's.
If it were up to me, I would rather that Kilee's pokemon die for good than have the mafia an option to trade for it or buy for it or whatever will come. I am not sure who I am willing to vote for right now, we still have some, and some people that still need time to catch up. I am more worried about Rolsand than I am Kilee, if a decision had to be made between the two, I would rather remove Rolsand - he at least isn't town.
In a game this size, I am guessing the "third party" roles are actually probably a "fifth party" roles and there have to be multiple factions, there are 27 of us.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I still don't think all the concern over Kilee's power is really warranted. Even if her power is to steal other people's pokemon right out from under their noses, there's no way she can get away with doing it now, without everybody cracking down on her the moment a pokemon goes missing. We could have somebody investigate her and confirm if she's town, because if she can get first dibs on grabbing pokemon from the Champion's cabin, it could let us control who gets left behind pokemon, like the Sandshrew.
IF Rolsand is telling it true about the doll business THEN it's fairly benign. The doll doesn't actually kill anyone. He just needs to correctly guess who is going to die, and give them the doll. That doesn't hurt town. That person was going to die anyway, the doll doesn't effect that outcome.
IF Rolsand's hint about a 'ticking time bomb' indicates that he can detonate the doll and kill someone, THEN we'll know it was him in the morning reveal and we can lynch him. BUT I don't think this is the case, because how does this translate into a win condition? You win when you successfully kill someone with the doll? That doesn't make sense.
Rolsand has put all his cards on the table. We know his pokemon, his night ability, his win conditions. He's no longer a serious threat to us (only to the size of the thread).
@Rolsand, I know everyone else and their mum has already said it, but it doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Please read this and take it in. Instead of making multiple posts containing one sentence, PLEASE PUT ALL THOSE SINGLE SENTENCES IN ONE POST. It'll only cost you a few seconds of your time, and it'll detaunt a lot of the aggro you're pulling.
Okay 1am me read Rolsand's reveal a bit harsher than I am reading it now and Cen's post clarified my understanding a bit. I'm also having vague recollections of creepy psychic trainers etc.
I think he's telling the truth. If it's really like pass the parcel then yes he would have only one chance to get this right which explains his one more night plea. And it's unlikely he used it last night when everything was most random. So yep, I think everything Rolsand has revealed so far has been the truth. There's still an unknown player who can quake.
I'm curious if people inherit the same win condition when they come into possession of the doll as I don't see the same win condition working in the hands of the mafia-groups who always have to outnumber town to win. But as Melali points out, it would be OP for mafia, so I'm willing to believe that if such happens that mechanic will fall out of the game and doll ends up in Champion's car or something.
So yep, I'm still good with Kilee over Rolsand. I didn't think anyone could win on Night 2, but if Rolsand gets it right tonight and picks the right person out of 26 others with maybe 2/3 deaths to come, fair play to Creepy Boy from Lavender Town. But he still has to win with town rather than mafia unless they're up for sharing a victory...
It would also be my understanding that for you to win with this condition Rolsand, you will also have to survive to the end? Can you clarify if that's correct with Tremula? To my knowledge, jester is the only role can still win after being eliminated.
If Town doesn't want share a victory with Rolsand, we can just vig/eliminate him but I really believe we'd just be doing mafia's work for them. I say he's earned his chance at getting his personal win.
If he still annoys people to the point of getting himself eliminated out of frustration, well then it will be his own fault.
Out of the two pokemon that I consider dangerous for the enemy to have, I would consider Kilee's far more dangerous for the mafia to have than Rolsand's.
If it were up to me, I would rather that Kilee's pokemon die for good than have the mafia an option to trade for it or buy for it or whatever will come. I am not sure who I am willing to vote for right now, we still have some, and some people that still need time to catch up. I am more worried about Rolsand than I am Kilee, if a decision had to be made between the two, I would rather remove Rolsand - he at least isn't town.
In a game this size, I am guessing the "third party" roles are actually probably a "fifth party" roles and there have to be multiple factions, there are 27 of us.
Im both town and third party. My win condition is pretty simple whoever has the doll and dies with allows me to win there's no twist to it and if I do win I will just stand to the side and try to protect me sandshrew while town continues to take down the Mafia.
yeah but my the way I had seen my power was too overpowered so it had to be changed.
So it was absolutely a change made once it looked like it wasn't going to play out as expected, and not a clarification on how it was supposed to work?
@Tremula if you could please chime in so we don't waste another 3 pages of fruitless and circuitous speculation it would be appreciated.
I'm just trying to figure out exactly how mad at Tremula I'm supposed to be. I'm working on a scale that currently goes from "not at all, misunderstanding" to "please tell me you're not serious."
If it was specifically a change and not just a clarification on something that wasn't specifically stated, then I stand by being annoyed about it. You can't change the rules of the game after it's already started. I certainly hope that isn't what happened.
After but at this point I'm fine with the change. Also the ability stated at the start that I may pass the doll so in a way Tremula really made it clear that I have to pass at least once.
@Phoebus it sounds like it was a clarification... It sounds like he was always intended to win when the player with the doll died, Tremula just clarified that he had to pass it at least once first.
Let's not get caught in a blind alley. We can't blame Rolsand for changes Tremula introduces!
Hindsight is 20/20 and in a game this size, in trying to balance everything a few things could slip their intended purpose. Think of it like a bugfix!
(I'm quite happy with the change since it's a firm no to jesters.)
Trust me, I'm not blaming Rolsand. If this, a role that was stated to have been designed specifically for Rolsand, needed to be changed after the game was in progress due to a very predictable situation coming up, I think that's less of a bugfix in hindsight, and more not being prepared to deal with the consequences of "wouldn't it be funny if Rolsand was a jester?" or something to that effect. If one role can be adjusted because it might have an unwanted outcome, how can I trust that other parts of the game aren't being changed as we go?
If it was merely a clarification and Rolsand was simply mistaken about it being an actual change, then alright. If it was actually a change, I might be reconsidering if I want to play this one anymore.
Sounds like an addendum for balancing purposes more than a change. I dunno why we would be mad about that. If we want to insist it be changed back, I'm cool with that too. Let Rolsand win if we lynch him with the doll. What's the harm?
Comments
Unvote
Vote: Kilee
Very simple reasoning behind this move.
IF Rolsand is telling it true about the doll business THEN it's fairly benign. The doll doesn't actually kill anyone. He just needs to correctly guess who is going to die, and give them the doll. That doesn't hurt town. That person was going to die anyway, the doll doesn't effect that outcome.
IF Rolsand's hint about a 'ticking time bomb' indicates that he can detonate the doll and kill someone, THEN we'll know it was him in the morning reveal and we can lynch him. BUT I don't think this is the case, because how does this translate into a win condition? You win when you successfully kill someone with the doll? That doesn't make sense.
Rolsand has put all his cards on the table. We know his pokemon, his night ability, his win conditions. He's no longer a serious threat to us (only to the size of the thread).
@Rolsand, I know everyone else and their mum has already said it, but it doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Please read this and take it in. Instead of making multiple posts containing one sentence, PLEASE PUT ALL THOSE SINGLE SENTENCES IN ONE POST. It'll only cost you a few seconds of your time, and it'll detaunt a lot of the aggro you're pulling.
I think he's telling the truth. If it's really like pass the parcel then yes he would have only one chance to get this right which explains his one more night plea. And it's unlikely he used it last night when everything was most random. So yep, I think everything Rolsand has revealed so far has been the truth. There's still an unknown player who can quake.
I'm curious if people inherit the same win condition when they come into possession of the doll as I don't see the same win condition working in the hands of the mafia-groups who always have to outnumber town to win. But as Melali points out, it would be OP for mafia, so I'm willing to believe that if such happens that mechanic will fall out of the game and doll ends up in Champion's car or something.
So yep, I'm still good with Kilee over Rolsand. I didn't think anyone could win on Night 2, but if Rolsand gets it right tonight and picks the right person out of 26 others with maybe 2/3 deaths to come, fair play to Creepy Boy from Lavender Town. But he still has to win with town rather than mafia unless they're up for sharing a victory...
When you give the doll away, does the person have to die in the same night or is the following day phase lynch also sufficient?
If Town doesn't want share a victory with Rolsand, we can just vig/eliminate him but I really believe we'd just be doing mafia's work for them. I say he's earned his chance at getting his personal win.
If he still annoys people to the point of getting himself eliminated out of frustration, well then it will be his own fault.
I'm satisfied anyhoo, and believe current vote count is 9 for Kilee, 11 to Rolsand.
So it was absolutely a change made once it looked like it wasn't going to play out as expected, and not a clarification on how it was supposed to work?
I think the big question now is whether this power changed BEFORE the game began, or AFTER play (and therefore discussion and strategy) had started
Hindsight is 20/20 and in a game this size, in trying to balance everything a few things could slip their intended purpose. Think of it like a bugfix!
(I'm quite happy with the change since it's a firm no to jesters.)